I shoot twice a week at range with 20 lanes (total) 50 yd and 100 yd, 100% Kongsberg e-targets only, no paper. (closed acoustic chamber type, not "open" acoustic) . Quite often the (four) 50 yard targets are "shot out" to the extent there is nothing but a ragged 2" dia hole in bullseye centers,, no aim point..shot clean thru and thru, front middle rear.. you will see the dirt berm backstop 60 yards beyond the target in your scope .. even if they paste a new bulleye on target front face, that hole is still there, and I have lost all confidence in e-monitor plotting/scoring.. waste of time and ammo... no matter what Kongsberg or others may hype about targets being good for 300-3000 round counts , that acoustic chamber is seriously compromised when there is a 2" or larger hole clean thru it,, and anybody with a decent rifle/scope can obliterate an entire 2" 9-ring area in less than 50 shots of course... I don't expect the RSOs to do extensive expensive work on these targets every day, either, it is very high cost maintenance .. but I have about given up doing 22LR rimfire at 50 yards.. with (16) 100 yard lanes, I can shoot rimfire magnum, and do; those targets do not get even 10% of the shot counts on them that the (4) 50 yd targets do, mostly centerfire guys throwing less than 10 shots downrange .. so I can always find at least few 100yd targets in pretty decent shape ... just looking for any comments or opinions or experiences with similar e-targets.. what round counts do YOU trust on these things, etc .. have you found any practical solutions ??? .. (some of the LONG range centerfire shooters have some experience with this, but I find extreme little so far amongst the rimfire brethren .. not much feedback on what reasonable centerfires shots counts ought be.. and shot density obviously matters)
closed acoustic chamber e-targets .. shot counts ??
- Thread starter rimfireninja
- Start date
My first question would be are you certain that the 50 yard targets are acoustic? Not all Kongsberg targets are acoustic, they manufacture optical versions for use at 10-50 meters that do not use sound at all to locate the shot.
I have a good bit of experience with both Megalink (acoustic) and Sius (optical) targets and find them to perform as advertised if installed, maintained and functioning correctly.
I have seen problems with the acoustic type (closed chamber, not talking about the open microphone systems here) where the sound membrane, either rubber or paper does not advance causing inaccurate shot location after several shots in close proximity. In the example that you give of a 2" diameter hole, with a subsonic bullet, an acoustic target will probably not register if the bullet does not contact anything while passing through the target.
I have a good bit of experience with both Megalink (acoustic) and Sius (optical) targets and find them to perform as advertised if installed, maintained and functioning correctly.
I have seen problems with the acoustic type (closed chamber, not talking about the open microphone systems here) where the sound membrane, either rubber or paper does not advance causing inaccurate shot location after several shots in close proximity. In the example that you give of a 2" diameter hole, with a subsonic bullet, an acoustic target will probably not register if the bullet does not contact anything while passing through the target.
yes our range KTS target are absolutely CLOSED box (not Open frame) acoustic, NO they are not laser/IR optical at all .. (yes, I know what you are saying about the optical and/or hybrid hybrid optical/acoustic flavors).. SIUS does more of those.. none of this is about brand names... as for "if installed, maintained and functioning correctly".. thanks, but that statement is only infinitely vague, LOL ...our's do not automatically index the internal membrane.. (has to be done manually by range personnel) ...which is why I have seen right thru the box all the way to backstop berm 50 yards further downrange from target, multiple times . multiple targets, multiple lanes.. but, no kidding, that box will still see an acoustic wave and register something/somewhere.. just not the right thing at the right place .. but I think we agree.. there are really not supposed to have open holes that size clean thru the box, membranes and all ... the question is.. any opinion or experience of how high a "shot density" could be tolerable vs intolerable.. what percentage of an area can be shot out and still yield semi-tolerable results ..??? ... we know its not some magic number breakpoint; target degradation is surely continuous and relative to number of hits taken, but about where does it just go to hell in a handbasket ???
The Kongsberg non acoustic targets are also a closed box but use a camera based system, not laser or IR.
www.kongsbergtargets.com
I don't think the 300-3000 round count applies to targets intended for subsonic applications and it is dependent on concentration of hits. On the 300 meter target, you can spread 3000 shots across the face of the target and not loose accuracy but if you put 100 on top of each other in the X ring you will have problems
I have found the parameters for installation, maintenance and operation to be well defined in the factory manuals supplied with the systems that I have experience with.
On targets with a paper strip, I have seen the range control monitor show a sensor value warning with 2 overlapping shots when the paper did not advance.
With the rubber membrane used in the 50 meter targets, if it does not advance, once a hole develops you can see the sensor values drop on the monitor and you get errors but it takes more shots than with the paper.
Either way, the target requires maintenance.
As I said, I do not have any experience with Kongsberg targets but it sounds like the targets are not ideal for your use.
Support – W5 Training
Kongsberg Target Systems offer high quality support services handled by some of our most qualified personnell.
www.kongsbergtargets.com
I have found the parameters for installation, maintenance and operation to be well defined in the factory manuals supplied with the systems that I have experience with.
On targets with a paper strip, I have seen the range control monitor show a sensor value warning with 2 overlapping shots when the paper did not advance.
With the rubber membrane used in the 50 meter targets, if it does not advance, once a hole develops you can see the sensor values drop on the monitor and you get errors but it takes more shots than with the paper.
Either way, the target requires maintenance.
As I said, I do not have any experience with Kongsberg targets but it sounds like the targets are not ideal for your use.
pretty ideal for my use actually.. if only all others would just stop shooting at 'em, LOL .. but I conclude same as you.. gimme a fresh target in tip top shape, I am good for 3 to 5 dozen rounds.. but that means the range maintenance burden on these things would be horrendous .. and I think they are maybe starting to realize that .. the 100 yrd targets don't take so many hits, so I don't have nearly same issue with those, pretty satisfactory with whatever limited maintenance they are doing on those.. good enuff for me ..
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my bet is that is is all going to go digital imaging within 3 years everywhere anyway.. not digi-scopes, not remote wifi link target cameras.. but PoE cabled "security cameras", one per lane, at the bench, aimed at target stand, 4K digital resolution, with 60X or higher OPTICAL zoom, take your shots, take your pictures, use any cheap tablet as bench table monitor, analyze later with On Target TDS or ballistic-X or whatever,, put up a dozen paper targets per lane target stand , so don't have to keep changing em real frequently ,, camera tech keeps getting better, camera prices keep dropping .. I would just use my Canon 40X Optical zoom 20MP camera if we used paper targets on the kongsberg 50 yd stands, but we do not
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oh yeah, I already have downloaded copies of EVERYTHING Kongsberg has on-line, and I do mean everything.. but they are selling of course, and not real forthcoming about system limitations and real world upkeep costs.. same as all the othersThe Kongsberg non acoustic targets are also a closed box but use a camera based system, not laser or IR.
I don't think the 300-3000 round count applies to targets intended for subsonic applications and it is dependent on concentration of hits. On the 300 meter target, you can spread 3000 shots across the face of the target and not loose accuracy but if you put 100 on top of each other in the X ring you will have problemsSupport – W5 Training
Kongsberg Target Systems offer high quality support services handled by some of our most qualified personnell.
I have found the parameters for installation, maintenance and operation to be well defined in the factory manuals supplied with the systems that I have experience with.
On targets with a paper strip, I have seen the range control monitor show a sensor value warning with 2 overlapping shots when the paper did not advance.
With the rubber membrane used in the 50 meter targets, if it does not advance, once a hole develops you can see the sensor values drop on the monitor and you get errors but it takes more shots than with the paper.
Either way, the target requires maintenance.
As I said, I do not have any experience with Kongsberg targets but it sounds like the targets are not ideal for your use.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I’ve been saying for a while now that the weakest link in all e-target systems is and will continue to be the proper maintenance of the equipment.
With conventional paper targets it is simple and performed by the shooters, lots of at least semi-qualified hands, You cannot do that with electronic targets. The people doing the maintenance need to be trained, and understand what they’re doing. Handing a target and compu to Joe Shooter on target 12 (who may still be grumpy that we aren’t all shooting M1s or M1As) and have him maintain it has a high probability of failure, but having that one guy who really understands the system means a lot of work in addition to the already time consuming job of running matche.
With conventional paper targets it is simple and performed by the shooters, lots of at least semi-qualified hands, You cannot do that with electronic targets. The people doing the maintenance need to be trained, and understand what they’re doing. Handing a target and compu to Joe Shooter on target 12 (who may still be grumpy that we aren’t all shooting M1s or M1As) and have him maintain it has a high probability of failure, but having that one guy who really understands the system means a lot of work in addition to the already time consuming job of running matche.
We had similar issues with center fire at close range f class. The x would just get shot out. So we re designed the acoustic layers and center to make easy and quick to install centres. They now last much longer and can take more of a pounding in the center. As mentioned, maintenance is key. They don’t work so well with big holes in them, especially if your shooting subsonic or transonic ammo.
hey, thanks to all who offered comments.. your participation has very real value
I don't know how feasible it is due to cost/maintenance issues, but when I built my ballistic tunnel many years ago I did a lot of research on targeting systems and chose the Meyton system. The Meyton is used at all or most of the Eley and Lapua customer service centers world wide for lot testing of ammo and you don't have to shoot through a paper target because for aiming purposes the target can be placed behind the targeting sensors.
If the cost has been less at the time, I would've had the system installed, but I'd already spent so damn much time and money on my facility and the custom chronograph I built that I just couldn't justify it. It would have allowed me to collect data at a greatly accelerated rate, but I decided the targeting system I'd already developed, though much slower, would allow me to feel less guilty about the ridiculous amount of finances I was siphoning from my retirement savings.
As I said, this was quite some time ago and I haven't perused the technical specs or the various system prices at Meyton for ages. Just a thought as I read this thread.
Landy
If the cost has been less at the time, I would've had the system installed, but I'd already spent so damn much time and money on my facility and the custom chronograph I built that I just couldn't justify it. It would have allowed me to collect data at a greatly accelerated rate, but I decided the targeting system I'd already developed, though much slower, would allow me to feel less guilty about the ridiculous amount of finances I was siphoning from my retirement savings.
As I said, this was quite some time ago and I haven't perused the technical specs or the various system prices at Meyton for ages. Just a thought as I read this thread.
Landy
very similar to some SIUS flavors (interrupted crossing pattern IR beams, uses LED IR emitters, and photoreceivers) https://sius.com/en/products/?product_cat=50m-en&search=
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the thing is .. right now, today .. you can buy a 16MP-20MP (4k resolution) compact digital camera with .. 40X 50X 60X 67X 83X even 125X .. ***OPTICAL*** zoom .. even from Amazon, not all that pricey ... $300-$600 for some of them (double for 125X) .. ( my 20MP 40X optical zoom Canon was <$400) set up on your shooting bench, small table top tripod.. along with a cheapo $150 10 inch droid tablet .. wifi link or cable connect .. mission accomplished .. or just use your smartphone ... but it's not stuff you would leave on the shooting bench 24x365 .. only a matter of time before someone half smart puts 'em into IP67 security camera form factor .. (they already do, but insane pricing at present) .. view in real time, do photos or loop photos or video .. once you have target image capture you can do anything with it.. and nobody need lasers or acoustics or piezoelectrics, or high maintenance targets or special monitors or dedicated servers or trained technicians m.. those cameras have a long service life .. and nothing is downrange to get shot up except dirt cheap paper targets you are supposed to shoot up .. (you would NOT of course share just ONE paper target a week with a dozen other shooters all week long though)
sort of illustative .. simplistic example, the rimfire targets being 2" diameter and 50% scale A23 and 1 inch shoot-n-cee dots, taped on 12 x 18 backer, hung from steel garden flag holder at 25/30 yards from firing line... pictures from firing line bench, zoom and zoom-in-more, Canon SX740 camera, the closest up view here being at 40X optical, images prior to shooting, 20MP photos, ~5MB a pop in the original jpg format .. super easy to view & mark shots.. then think of an 80X zoom at 50-60 yards ... (or even 100 yards which you can digital zoom in on via software afterwards, right down to pixel level)
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