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Cleaning with brushes

Everyone has their own method to how they clean a gun. Im not after how you do it but have a question for those who use brushes.

Would you find better carbon removal with a solvent and a bronze brush pushed one way only through the bore? Or would you get better performance with the same solvent and a stiff nylon brush eg iosso blue bristle type, short scrubbed back and forth over carbon deposits?
 
I am not as picky as i once was 25 years ago but for many years i have only been using the nylon brush when i do clean the barrel. I also no not take the brush off when it exits the barrel, back and forth till i am done. I do not bench rest shoot and this is the method i use cleaning my varmint rigs.
 
The best Carbon removal that I have found, after normal cleaning, is three to five tight fitting patches of J B Bore Cleaning Compound, worked back and forth many times, through the entire barrel before exiting. Spend more time in the area from one to four inches in front of the chamber, but don't neglect the entire barrel.

My Hawkeye Borescope indicated that I needed to spend more time working the entire barrel since I found deposits of copper and carbon in the last three inches.

Once finished with the JB, re-clean the barrel to remove all the JB. The second cleaning is a pain in the butt. However, removing the carbon, especially in my expensive custom barrels, to me, is worth the effort after a full days worth of competition, or about 60 to 80 rounds.
 
If someone knows how to post Barrel cleaning procedure within Accurate shooter . com. Has a great read how the top shooters do it. Larry
 
There are claims and counter-claims ad nauseam about which brushes to use and how to use them. Even the "experts" differ in their opinions.
I have better results in my Bartlein 5R with good quality brass core bronze brushes running both directions, lubricating the brush when it exists the muzzle about every tenth cycle and clearing the debris with a wet patch after about thirty cycles. I'm careful to bring the brush back through the muzzle very slowly, ensuring that it's centered in the bore, with each stroke. I use a rotating bronze brush at the neck shoulder and free bore junction where carbon seems to deposit itself more heavily than in other areas of the rifle's bore.
I do use nylon brushes for a quick clean-up between shooting dates on successive days but I select the bronze brush that final cleaning before it's put to bed waiting for the next practice session or match date.
 
Like I said, not interested in peoples cleaning procedures... but interested to hear peoples thought between the two methods. Most people seem to agree that back and forth scrubbing with a bronze brush in a barrel isnt their way of cleaning. Some seem happy to push the brush out of the muzzle then bring it back, but not changing direction in the barrel. However nylon it seems fairly well accepted. So again it would be good to hear if bronze pushed one way works better than nylon back and forth...
 
There are two kinds of people who clean barrels, those who are lucky enough to have, or have a friend with a bore scope, and those that are guessing. I have a couple of friends with bore scopes, and so I have fairly sound basis for my opinions on bore fouling and cleaning.

How you have to clean, depends on the barrel, especially with regard to copper, and what powder you are using. I have shot lots of rounds through various 6PPC barrels, burning 133, and have never had to use an abrasive. Bronze brushes, flannel patches, and solvent are all that have been required to pass bore scope inspections. On the other hand, the same barrels will need more than that if other powders are used.

On the hard carbon thing, the best solution that I have came from an old article in Precision Shooting, from back in the day when Tony Boyer was shooting one of the lots of surplus 8208 called T powder, which would build up carbon rather quickly to the point that top lever benchrest accuracy was at risk. Mr. Boyer would do a normal cleaning, patches, solvent and bronze brush, followed by a nylon brush (one of the softer black ones that could be easily reversed in the bore) filled to the ends of its bristles with IOSSO, with which he would short stroke ( a couple of inches) up and down the back 8-10" of the bore a couple of times, before removing the abrasive with patches and solvent. IMO you need to be careful to confine your use of abrasives to the area that the carbon problem is in, because they will polish a barrel, and that can cause copper fouling problems. So I advise solvent for the copper, and careful use of abrasive for hard carbon, but only where it is. Recently, a friend brought a barrel to me so that we could look at it with a bore scope. It had a real carbon problem even though he had cleaned it until the patches were white. It only took 2-3 minutes short stroking a nylon brush in the back third to half of the barrel to solve his problem. The real problems happen when you start leaving uncleaned carbon in a barrel that you think that you have cleaned, and that happens several times in a row, at which point you will have an accuracy problem and not know where it is coming from. I have seen that happen more than once, because some fellow had read too much in magazines or on the internet, and was not getting his barrel clean enough. Barrels wear out, and if you do not want to waste too much of their accurate service life chasing your tail looking for solutions to mysterious accuracy problems that came from the cumulative effects of cleaning too lightly, you need to get them clean enough, every time you do a major cleaning. It is pretty common that people do not.
 
Thank you Boyd- great advice.

I think Im going to do some testing on the cleaning of carbon from barrels with different brushes. I know that abrasives (JB/Iosso) are needed to get carbon out sooner or later. Coming from an F class background- here in Aus anyway, we shoot our matches with usually 2-3 different ranges before having a lunch break and the same again in the afternoon. Now that will mean 12 shots (10+2 sighters) with an hour or two's wait before the next 12, then the same again before the next 12. At this point I prefer to clean the barrel with a solvent to remove as much carbon as possible, quickly so I can eat, relax and prepare for the afternoons shooting. Its possible to apply solvent in the barrel while its still warm, before the carbon can go cold and harden which would require abrasives to move. What Im trying to figure out here is what brush and action would work better on it with a carbon removing solvent. I do not wish to short scrub a barrel back and forth with a bronze brush. I will do that with a nylon brush however. Just not sure what would have the best result. It seems a borescope will show me what works better so will go that way.

Yes barrels do wear out and are consumable, but I dont like the idea of using abrasives every time I clean if I dont have to.
 
J B and Iosso isn't a abrasive . Motty paste is. I listed a site where you can go and see what experts do .I dot have any idea other then goggle it . It is a great read by real experts . Larry
 
My cleaning routine and reality are from the short range benchrest perspective. Within that, there are shooters that clean after every target, and those that go several between cleanings. I fall in the latter group, and made the change after a conversation with George Kelbly, over 15 years back.

Generally the fewer rounds between cleaning, the less effort required to clean. Also, barrels differ as to what they prefer. I have had barrels that seemed to shoot tighter as more rounds were fired, up to the point where I was not willing to risk going any further, this shooting 133. I have had others that did better clean. With 133, I have gotten satisfactory results by only brushing at the end of an aggregate, with a single cleaning with patches and solvent after the third target. When I have brushed, I have found it advisable to shoot more rounds on the sighter to settle the barrel, so as to avoid surprises on the record target. As I mentioned with that powder, it was not necessary to use an abrasive at all.

As far as JB or IOSSO not being abrasives, I will simply say that I disagree, they both clean with the use of particles through mechanical action, and the IOSSO has some chemical component as well ( I believe). Certainly they are not as severe in their action as lapping compounds, but particularly in the case of IOSSO, you can see some actual polishing action from its use. Neither one will scratch a barrel if properly used. (They both require some care as to rod guide use and selection, as well as rod technique, in order to keep from wearing crowns and throats.) Based on experience, IOSSO is more effective for hard carbon deposits that cannot be removed by brushing with a bronze brush and solvent. It is that particular class of fouling that I refer to as carbon, or what is generally referred to as "hard carbon". Anything else, to me, is simply powder fouling.

I agree that powder fouling tends to set up over time, and become harder to remove. All one needs to do to discover this is wipe off the neck of a freshly fired case, and let another set for a week and try the same thing. Smaller bores tend to be more finicky as to cleaning. I also believe that for some shooting sports were winning accuracy requirements are less, that cleaning less often can be better tolerated. This is not to say that these types of competition are less challenging, just that they have different requirements. There is also the problem as to whether the course of fire allows time for cleaning, or for fouling shots after it is done.

One last point, it seems that on the internet, much has been made about the advisability of only brushing from chamber to muzzle, and removing the brush after it exits the muzzle. I have never seen a short range benchrest shooter do this, and am not aware of any that do. This would include a number of current and past world record holders that I am personally acquainted with. I have also spoken with a number who have tried various nylon brushes for their ordinary, non abrasive, cleaning, and who came to the conclusion that they were not as effective as their bronze brethren.

As I stated earlier, the use of a bore scope is required to know what the inside of a barrel looks like both before and after cleaning. They are also very useful in determining how much effort, with what materials and tools are required to get the job done. They do have the disadvantage of sometimes causing shooters to become overly concerned with getting barrels absolutely spotless, which in my experience is not necessary, and which may do more harm than good, if done every cleaning. They can also lead to false conclusions as to whether a barrel has accuracy potential. There has been some fine shooting done with barrels that looked perfectly awful inside.
 
Lapua40X said:
BY1983 said:
... So again it would be good to hear if bronze pushed one way works better than nylon back and forth...

No
Bronze pushed/pulled both directions works better than nylon in either direction. Nylon lays down like a wet rag. Bronze retains most of it's stiffness in both directions, allowing it to do it's job in the barrels grooves, whereas nylon glides right over the top.
 
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/barrel-cleaning-debate/
 
Some scientific data on bore cleaning brushes. :D

I took a new 7mm brush from a Sinclair bulk pack. The individual bronze wire mic's at .004 and is quite stiff. They are packed much denser in the wire core. A new nylon brand X bristle measures .016, less pack density. Which one has a better chance of scrubbing in the tight corners of the grooves ?
 
bobm said:
Some scientific data on bore cleaning brushes. :D

I took a new 7mm brush from a Sinclair bulk pack. The individual bronze wire mic's at .004 and is quite stiff. They are packed much denser in the wire core. A new nylon brand X bristle measures .016, less pack density. Which one has a better chance of scrubbing in the tight corners of the grooves ?
You get a big A+, AND, the coveted gold star for that ;) 8)
 
Aw shucks....last time I got a gold star on my forehead was '58 or '59 ;D

To the OP..FWIW. I shoot offhand competition, metallic silhouette. A rifle that will shoot one MOA or better is accurate enough for this game. Out of the box M700's can do this well or better with tuned hand loads.

I choose the better match grade SS barrels. They will last up to 5K rounds and remain accurate enough for me. My own cleaning regimen is pass a bronze brush through 5-6 times both ways soaked in either Montana Extreme or Hoppes BR formula 9. Let it work for five minutes while I clean and lube the bolt. I then push one clean patch through wrapped around an alligator jag. Then two more patches pushed both ways. Clean the chamber...done. Every fourth cleaning or 400-500 rds. I use the JB bore paste method describe in this thread, but with far fewer scrubbing passes. I do own a Hawkeye to prove this cleaning method works for me. I have fired up to 300 shots at regional events with out in between cleaning, with no ill effects on accuracy.

My direct answer to the original question , my opinion only, the brushes were made and designed for two way use. They may even last longer with out taking a one way "set". As usual, neutralize the solvent wet brush before storage. Those thin bristles will be weakened by ammonia solvents.
 
Ive gone and got myself a 7mm bronze brush (proshot) and some MPro7 as its supposed to be quite good on carbon. Im going to try it out a little and see how it goes. It would be great to get the nasty Quicksilver Powertune/Shooters Choice/GM TEC chemicals out of my cleaning regime as we all know they arent good for you.

This weekend I will get to shoot my 284 shehane and then do some cleaning to see what the bronze brush can achieve. Im still not going to change direction of the brush while its in the barrel though, where I will do that with the nylon brush and Iosso paste when cleaning back to steel.
 
I am not sure that you could change direction in the bore with a properly fitting bronze brush even if you wanted to.
 

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