Cleaning with Abrasives and using Fire Lapping kits and warranty

[FrankG]

Not sure where to post this so I'm going to post this on AS so going to put it on the main main message board.

This will probably start an argument but don't know what else to do other than to spell this out in black and white.

This has been kicked to death I don't know how many times but not just by me but by everyone when it comes to cleaning. I've posted pictures of what happens and the damage that can be done to barrels from using abrasives, using abrasives in conjunction with a brush and fire lapping barrels.

Everyone... when it comes to using an abrasive type cleaner you have to be very careful in how you use it. Improper use or over using an abrasive type cleaner either in a paste form or a liquid form it can and will cause problems. When and where and in what time frame we cannot put exact numbers on it. Too much is beyond our control being the barrel maker. We have ZERO control over what and how people clean barrels.

Same goes with someone using a fire lapping kit, Tubbs Final Finish or someone doing they're own finish lapping to a barrel. Again we have no control over what is being done.
You cannot expect a barrel maker to warranty and replace a barrel at n/c when something is being done to it that is totally beyond our control.

Latest example with pictures attached. Customer has less than 400 rounds on a 6mm barrel. Caliber is 6XC. He used Iosso bore paste along with Tubbs Final Finish to fire lap the barrel. How many times etc... we don't know exactly.

The first approx. 2" of rifling in front of the chamber... the lands are completely gone. Basically polished smooth. From the breech face of the chamber until you get about 6" up from the breech do you start to see lands. At this junction point the bore is about .2385". That's a full .0015" of material that has been taken out of the bore.

Tubbs years ago asked me to endorse his Final Finish kits. I said... only if he was going to cover the warranty on the barrels. The conversation ended right then and there on the phone.

The rest of the bore when you look at the lands there is no crispness to it. The edges are smoothed/rounded over. All points to cleaning damage. Sorry for the grainy pics.

The customer wasn't happy when we said we will not warranty it. He said he's done it to four other barrels with no issues. Again guys... we have no control over how much is done and how often and how aggressive. Cleaning is simply beyond our control in what a person does to the barrel. Maybe the company who makes the cleaner product should cover the warranty to the barrel/customers rifle. I'd like to see that happen?

I tried to come to a happy medium with customer and said that we would help with something but not eating the whole thing. it was a no go.

It's on our website under cleaning etc.... as well.

No fire lapping kits should be used in our barrels. This can damage the barrel and we will not warranty a barrel in any way.
Your barrel should never be lapped by anyone else other than us. Any individual or gunsmith lapping our barrels also voids the warranty.

If you want to play with or use a Fire Lapping kit.... I only say in a factory type barrel with a really rough bore and if your going to use it in ours... use it towards the end of the life of the barrel. Then I feel you most likely have nothing to lose if something should happen but there is no reason to use it on our barrel when it's new etc... if you think you have a problem with our barrel.... I'd prefer you call us and ask us for help before something gets done to it that cannot be undone.

First pic is at the case mouth of the 6mm barrel. Next pic is 6" from the breech face/approx. 2" to 3" in from the case mouth and there is no rifling. Next pic is 8" up from the breech end. Last pic is a few inches in from the muzzle end. It's just getting polished and the crispness to the lands is gone.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Turkeytider]

Thanks Frank. Is there ANYTHING in the world of rifle shooting that causes more apparent angst than how and when and with what to clean a rifle barrel ?

 

[PhilC]

Just boggles my mind.

 

[AckleymanII]

I played with fire lapping some years ago, with various sizes of grits. I rolled the bullets between two steel plates. I was amazed at how fast just 3-5 bullets would eat up a bore. Merrill Martin was into fire lapping with lead bullets, some of you may remember.

If a guy wants to go down this road, casting a lap around a screw that has the same thread pitch as your cleaning rod jag is the way to go, and do not learn on new barrels. Then use your cleaning rod with the cast lap on it with various grits. Figure you are going to screw up a couple of barrels to learn the basics on lapping.

First thing you learn, you can not lap out drill marks. If you happen to get a really rough cut rifle barrel, you can smooth things up to make it serviceable, where the bore will not become copper-coated in three rounds, but you will still have to clean frequently with multiple applications of copper solvent.

 

[DIBBS]

It's really sad that in today's society, that some individuals think that they can do stupid shit to custom barrels and destroy/substantially degrade them, and that somehow it's a manufacturing problem and that Frank needs to make a post like this. Ah, for the days of common sense and critical thinking skills, before you embark on such adventures to destroy a barrel.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'll tell you what really eats up throats.

Fire.

Or as my step son says "hot fire".

 

[Turkeytider]

It's really sad that in today's society, that some individuals think that they can do stupid shit to custom barrels and destroy/substantially degrade them, and that somehow it's a manufacturing problem and that Frank needs to make a post like this. Ah, for the days of common sense and critical thinking skills, before you embark on such adventures to destroy a barrel.

The new thing apparently is the routine ( like in EVERY cleaning ) use of Thorroclean to clean barrels. Being simply Iosso in solution, therefore an abrasive, how can that not be detrimental to a barrel over time? The boys doing it swear by it, though. Perhaps they haven’t been doing it long enough to see any negative ramifications? And I’m not trying to say that there’s no appropriate time and way to use an abrasive, either.

 

[FrankG]

It's really sad that in today's society, that some individuals think that they can do stupid shit to custom barrels and destroy/substantially degrade them, and that somehow it's a manufacturing problem and that Frank needs to make a post like this. Ah, for the days of common sense and critical thinking skills, before you embark on such adventures to destroy a barrel.

I feel for the bullet makers as well.

Several years ago I had a guy wreck 3 barrels in the span of 6 months. I said as nicely as I could on the phone that I was done. Using an abrasive cleaner and a brush. Last barrel had 110 rounds on it and he took a full .001" out of the bore.

Fast forward a few months later and I'll make the story as short as I can. Same guy returned a lot of bullets back to a bullet maker (I with hold names) and was complaining about bullets blowing up. So bullet maker calls me up and where discussing what causes bullet failure... towards the end of the conversation he says the guys name. I said.... well most likely still wrecking the barrels and that's the cause. He said they fired the bullet thru two test barrels we made and not a single failure.

Go figure.

 

[Link]

I borescoped a well-known shooters bore before he shot a match. The 1st 4'' looked slightly blue to me. [not clean]. No carbon ring ether. He did well. No abrasives for him. Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. LOL

my 2 cents.

 

[Link]

So you get a new custom barrel, you take it out and break it in. {Does it need it}? Then you clean it down to bare ss steel like factory finish. Does it need another ''breakin''?

 

[jelenko]

This is all so weird for me.
For a couple years I've been cleaning with an abrasive after every 50-100 shots. [223 with 69 gr bullets]
I do use the abrasive on a patch wrapped around a parker hale jag.
Even at 4000 rounds the lands are clearly visible just where they were when the barrel was new. [Just from eyeballing - I'm sure there is some wear and that the start of the lands has moved forward - my S80's show 50-70 thousandths difference from new]

I can't imagine how one could use enough abrasive bore cleaner [e.g., not lapping compounds] to remove the amount material shown in those pics.

 

[AckleymanII]

It's really sad that in today's society, that some individuals think that they can do stupid shit to custom barrels and destroy/substantially degrade them, and that somehow it's a manufacturing problem and that Frank needs to make a post like this. Ah, for the days of common sense and critical thinking skills, before you embark on such adventures to destroy a barrel.

Dibbs, some custom barrels do not look like custom barrels in the bore scope, which leads the novice to experiment, especially after he has sent the barrel back to the maker, with it being returned with a note, "Within Spec".

 

[Murray Brook]

@jelenko
I have the same experience as you.

 

[gdbleb]

No idea why someone would pay good money for a high-end barrel that is lapped by a professional and then do a DIY fire lap on it. I wonder how they polish their cars.

 

[Dgd6mm]

To each, their own.

 

[Alexander-M]

Frank,
How about JB Bore Non-Embedding Cleaning Compound? I use it on brand new barrels before shooting them all to 'smooth' out any fresh machining marks and residue. I then use it every 200 rounds or so. Does not appear to harm the barrels.

Thanks!

Alex

 

[FrankG]

This is all so weird for me.
For a couple years I've been cleaning with an abrasive after every 50-100 shots. [223 with 69 gr bullets]
I do use the abrasive on a patch wrapped around a parker hale jag.
Even at 4000 rounds the lands are clearly visible just where they were when the barrel was new. [Just from eyeballing - I'm sure there is some wear and that the start of the lands has moved forward - my S80's show 50-70 thousandths difference from new]

I can't imagine how one could use enough abrasive bore cleaner [e.g., not lapping compounds] to remove the amount material shown in those pics.

I've used this pic a million times... cleaned with KG2 bore paste and a brush after every 25 rounds fired. It's a 7mm/284win F class barrel. Pic is at 800 rounds and this is the muzzle end of the barrel.

Should measure .277" x .284". It now measures at the muzzle end .279" x .2855". Basically a full .002" was taken out of the barrel.

 

[FrankG]

Frank,
How about JB Bore Non-Embedding Cleaning Compound? I use it on brand new barrels before shooting them all to 'smooth' out any fresh machining marks and residue. I then use it every 200 rounds or so. Does not appear to harm the barrels.

Thanks!

Alex

I've got no issues with JB Bore Compound (blue label) and I do use it once in a while. Never with a brush. Patch only. Also you don't need to use a lot of it. A little goes a long way.

I'll also use Rem. 40x cleaner or I think it's called Remington bore cleaner. For us old timers it use to be called Gold Medallion. Again never with a brush. Just a patch. Again I don't use it all the time.

 

[280ai]

THANK YOU FRANK for posting this! I know its the competition but I have a new Brux 4 grove 6 gt Ken told me for brake in 5 rounds swab then SHOOT it! For cleaning Boretech and NOOOOOOO lapping. I know several PRS shooters here in Wi that use your barrels and do the same and they all shoot lightsout but better yet they all are 1800-2000 rounds down the road and still drive tacks!!!!!! ALL you guys who are buying custom barrels and not following these cleaning methods STOP IT. Again thank you frank!

 

[urbanrifleman]

This is all so weird for me.
For a couple years I've been cleaning with an abrasive after every 50-100 shots. [223 with 69 gr bullets]
I do use the abrasive on a patch wrapped around a parker hale jag.
Even at 4000 rounds the lands are clearly visible just where they were when the barrel was new. [Just from eyeballing - I'm sure there is some wear and that the start of the lands has moved forward - my S80's show 50-70 thousandths difference from new]

I can't imagine how one could use enough abrasive bore cleaner [e.g., not lapping compounds] to remove the amount material shown in those pics.

You could take Flitz Barrel Cleaner and put it on a rag and hold it on a barrel spinning in a lathe at 2000 rpm for 10 minutes and it wouldn't remove a micron.

Throats move because of the fire, not abrasives. At least on a patch. I'm still trying to figure out how a brass brush could cut steel, even with a normal abrasive on it. Shoot, even bullets don't cut steel. The fire does.