Cleaning results in poor groups ???

[Tim Singleton]

Im fairly new to shooting at a different level of accuracy. Ive never had anything other than off the shelf hunting or varmint rifles until a year ago.
I have 2 McGowen 6br barrels on savages. One fast twist one slow twist bull contours. I shoot Varget in the fast twist and H335 in the slow twist with Berger and Fowler bullets.

The question. Why do my groups open up after cleaning?
All I've read says that the top guys clean ,clean and clean. I clean with patch out with accelerate use a nylon brush. Several dry patches then check a patch with sweets looking for copper. The Mcgowens aren't copper fowling at all seem to come clean easily.
But it takes 10 shots for me to get back into groups that these guns will shoot consistent .2s and .3s occasionally a little smaller

I'm now stuck wondering when to clean?

Thanks in advance for any help
Tim

 

[fdshuster]

Tim: I find that to also be true when I "over clean". By that I mean removing every trace of fouling right down to bare metal, as verified with my borescope. Depending on the barrel, it could take as many as 20 shots fired for the barrel to settle down, a complete waste of ammo & barrel life.

Every barrel is different, but try backing off with your cleaning routine: more shots fired before cleaning & then just a minimal effort in cleaning. Maybe just a couple of wet and dry patches before shooting again.

Sounds like you have a very efficient cleaning routine, maybe too much of a good thing. Many would be happy to have that situation.

 

[82boy]

First off find what works best for you, and for your barrel. Some barrels like to be shot dirty, most Factory Savage barrel shoots best when they are dirty and will open up when you clean them. If this is the case, then don't clean until accuracy falls off. You say that groups don't settle down until you have shot 10 shots, well remember that. After you clean shot 10 shots before you shoot any groups, and don't clean until the accuracy falls off.

Many long range BR shooters (600 and 1000 yards.) don't clean there guns very often. I been to many match's and you see less cleaning on guns there than you do at a short range BR match. Considering that you are using a cartridge, mainly used in long range shooting I would follow their example. But even in short range BR shooting not everyone cleans after every round.

Last maybe it is the way your cleaning the rifle. Try experimenting with different cleaning methods, and different tools. I found the biggest fouling problem with a barrel is not copper but hard carbon. That black sooty stuff you get on the first patch is not what I am talking about. Hard Carbon will leave brown residue on patch's. Think of hard carbon as a partially formed Diamond. Now think of how hard is a diamond? You may have to get more aggressive with your cleaning practices to remove it, and once you do, you may find that your barrel behave different and will respond differently to cleaning.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you insist on a clean barrel, you may need to readjust your load for that bore condition, and clean often. It may be that the difference in bore condition is what has you out of tune for the number of shots that you mentioned. Or you can clean less rigorously most of the time, and see how long you can go between more through cleanings, which may require something like IOSSO to get rid of hard carbon. I have had barrels that did not shoot their best when clean. Managing them is a little different, but it can be done. You just have to "listen" to them and give them what they like. Yes, it is a bit of a pain. Have you tried to see how many shots you can shoot between cleanings before accuracy degrades?

 

[4xforfun]

I am going to try and NOT hijack the thread because this is related to how a bbl shoots clean...so ..here it goes.

I shoot 1000 BR, and now, some 600 BR. I have three high end comp guns, with at least 15 bbls between them. A couple take two or three days of HARD cleaning to get clean, and a couple simply clean with a couple of wet patches...although I do IASSO them every 100 or so rounds for carbon purposes. The rest I consider "normal". Now, I am not just talking clean..I am talking CLEAN. You see, I have a (cleaning) problem, and they say admitting that you actually have a problem is the FIRST step to recovery!!! ;D

Anyway, I have found something...I will call it weird...when shooting these tubes at a match.

The tubes that clean normally and also the ones that take days to clean, settle down after one or two shots during the sighter period. The tubes that clean up with one or two patches seem to take at least EIGHT to TEN shots to settle down.

Now, this is simply me thinking out loud...... just MY hypothesis. The tubes that clean up very easily also take many shots to "foul" sufficiently to begin to group. The tubes that clean "normally" are properly fouled after the first or second shot.

Which catigory do your BBLS fall under?

 

[Tim Singleton]

Thank you, gentlemen very much
I appreciate you taking the time to help us new guys

4xforfun. I find your observation pretty interesting. Makes since to me

 

[DogPatch06]

I have a factory remy 5r .308 barrel that also needs about 12-18 shots to settle down after cleaning. I would say that it has always fallen into the "very easy" to clean category, and has never had much hard (brown) carbon at all. I noticed it shoots better dirty, so after round #1900 or so I started cleaning every 200-250 rounds (especially after listening to some of the tactical .308 guys). I only use froglube in the bore, with a jag and bronze brush (Insert a variety of precision shooting Mantras here). I haven't put a copper solvent in the bore since, oh, about round # 125 (Please go easy on me). Now, more for fun, I'm really trying to see how many shots it takes until accuracy falls off. So far I've put 372 rounds down range without cleaning and have been posting the highest scores of my (still very young) shooting foray. I'll be putting 55 more rounds down tomorrow morning at a 300 yrd FTR match in Dulzura. Interesting about the pitting Greg, thanks for the tip. My bbl is getting up there with 3600+ rounds total. Did I get a lucky barrel? Meaning, should I be seeing something negative happening because in theory the copper fouling should be, well, really bad?

 

[DogPatch06]

Well said and good advice for all. We've all read what happens when scientifically valid cleaning regimens collide.
Let's hope my unicorns fly strait tomorrow! Cheers everyone and happy shooting!

 

[nonliberal]

One thing you may try is using Danzac, tungststen disulfide, WS2 (all the same thing but different names) or HBN (hexagonal boron nitride)

Many of the guys in short range BR and score shooting have discovered they can go an entire match (100-150 shots depending on sighters in VFS) without cleaning when using these bullet coatings because they foul so much less.
It has also been my experience that copper fouling has been almost non-existent when using coatings and slower twist barrels. The faster the twist will usually equal more copper fouling though.

 

[JRS]

Sounds like Boyd and Frank spent some time with Gale McMillan I have, and will probably always follow the cleaning routine taught to me by Mr. McMillan!

 

[snert]

I have an old Swift that I almost dumped because even though I cleaned it very well, it would not group, as in would not hold 2 inches! I had a bunch of suspect reloads, so determined I would burn them up, start over. At round number 12, all in a vertical line, the holes started getting closer and closer until a nice little dime sized hole was made. I started a regimen of cleaning every 25 rounds, only to stop at slightly dirty, and it continued to shoot well. At the end of my season I clean it well, then in spring shoot 10 rounds into a hill to start things off right! As said by someone else here, if it works for your gun, do it. BTW, from 10 rounds to 25 rounds, my Swift is now a 1/3 inch gun. Keep the girl a bit dirty and she is happy!