Cleaning products rant

[Dimner]

Better question- after you get your barrel clean, does it shoot better? If not, how many shots do you have to fire to get it dirty enough to shoot to its best potential?

Ok, better two questions.

Now my answer- it depends.

After I clean shots do not get better. It just means more shots until it gets worse. Consistency is the key. Good shots all the time.

I try not to let my barrels get dirty to the point where they shoot worse.

 

[Dimner]

A technical trainer once told me remember, the product instructions are written by the marketing people not the technical people!

Not fully true.

I'm a marketing person. I can fully vouch for the fact that instructions are written by pricduct specialists, then re written by marketing people and then nearly completely re-written by lawyers.

 

[AlNyhus]

Wow! That's s-o-m-e pile of cleaning products, Al. I'll venture the liquid in the re-capped jar is not a urine sample, so I'd guess GMC Top Engine Cleaner, aka TEC. But I could be wrong.

Speaking of which . . . back in 2010, a good BR buddy worked for a sporting magazine distributor and traveled all over Maine. GM had stopped making TEC about the time we discovered it worked great as a bore cleaner. He stopped in every GM and/or Chevy and bought every can they had for around $5-7 each.

Very good! Yep, it's the 'pre eco-friendly' formulation G.M. Top Engine Cleaner PN 1050002 (pint can with the pop tab top). It was also available in quart cans. The percentage of ammoniated salts and naptha makes it a great barrel cleaner.

A tip from a friend working for the Mercury Marine race engine program pointed me to Mercury Marine's 'Quicksilver Top Engine Cleaner'....which was the original G.M. formula relabeled as a Mercury Marine product. It continued on for another 7-8 years before being dc'd in favor of the reformulated product.

I could easily condense down to Wipe Out, Butch's, Hoppes #9, JB, Marvel Mystery Oil and a little squirt bottle of 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean bronze brushes and bore mops. Not surprisingly, that's what goes to the range with me.

Factory barrels sometimes need a bit more help and other potions, like the Dyna Bore Coat, can be useful in them.

 

[Bill K]

I guess I am OLD school and use Hoppe's mostly, but have added Wipe out foam and also basically follow the directions each have on the container.
Hoppe's has served me for over 70 years and done just fine on all my firearms. I like the foam for a soak and aid in removing the carbon/copper a little faster, but always follow up with Hoppe's #9. I do like the new Hoppe's black, for copper remover also.
Pick one or two, that you like and go for it in your cleaning routine.

 

[K22]

You want to know which gun specific cleaning solvent is best? (I am not referring to Billy Bob Joe's secret solvent - I referring to commercial solvents specifically formulated to clean firearms)

Just test them, results on target will tell you but don't be surprised if there isn't much difference that you can detect on target. I have tested a few and have found absolutely no difference at all that I can detect on target.

The only problem I encountered was using an aggressive copper remover, Cu+2, which presumably stripped out too much copper and gave me clean barrel flyers and the need to re-condition the bore with several fouling shots before the desired POI returned. When I just used C4 or Shooter Choice or Hoppe's 9, which are less aggressive on copper, all was fine. Even more surprising, I could not detect any difference on paper between these products. However, all were used with a bronze brush.

If your criteria for solvents are based on a bore scope image, ignore the above remarks.

PS: It continually amazes me that so much is made of which cleaning method, which solvent etc. is best when, in my experience, wind, mirage and the ability of the shooter to consistently apply sound shooting fundamentals shot to shot are such huge variables affecting performance.

 

[Cecil S.]

You want to know which gun specific cleaning solvent is best? (I am not referring to Billy Bob Joe's secret solvent - I referring to commercial solvents specifically formulated to clean firearms)

Just test them, results on target will tell you but don't be surprised if there isn't much difference that you can detect on target. I have tested a few and have found absolutely no difference at all that I can detect on target.

The only problem I encountered was using an aggressive copper remover, Cu+2, which presumably stripped out too much copper and gave me clean barrel flyers and the need to re-condition the bore with several fouling shots before the desired POI returned. When I just used C4 or Shooter Choice or Hoppe's 9, which are less aggressive on copper, all was fine. Even more surprising, I could not detect any difference on paper between these products. However, all were used with a bronze brush.

If your criteria for solvents are based on a bore scope image, ignore the above remarks.

PS: It continually amazes me that so much is made of which cleaning method, which solvent etc. is best when, in my experience, wind, mirage and the ability of the shooter to consistently apply sound shooting fundamentals shot to shot are such huge variables affecting performance.

I have found the bore scope to be a huge step forward (for me) but it dose take time to learn just what you are seeing. so there is another learning curve introduced to your cleaning. But it gives you immediate results.

 

[JimPag]

God some people make a project out of cleaning. Since I've always used HBN coated bullets, 1 wet patch of Patch Out followed by a dry one, repeat that once again and done. Never have any copper in my barrels, don't use a brush of any kind and never had a carbon ring according to what I see with my borescope. Use to use Butch's until a friend gave me a case of Patch Out and found out just how good Butch's wasn't when for the Hell of it I put a wet Patch of Patch Out thru a barrel that was cleaned with Butch's. Surprising results. That was the last time I ever used BBS. Once in a while if I feel like it I'll throw a patch of either MarvelMO or MotorKote down the barrel for good measure. I'm talking about my short range score barrels used in competition only. That's not the way I clean my hunting rifles when I use to use them.

 

[K22]

I have found the bore scope to be a huge step forward (for me) but it dose take time to learn just what you are seeing. so there is another learning curve introduced to your cleaning. But it gives you immediate results.

Many precision shooters agree with you which suggests that there must be some merit to it.

I just have one question. When you say "immediate results" what does that mean? In other words, does cleaning to a specific scope image correlate to performance on target?

The reason I ask is that I have seen $300 Savage rifles with bores that look very much less than pristine but shoot sub moa and better cleaned with nothing more than Hoppe's No. 9.

 

[Cecil S.]

Many precision shooters agree with you which suggests that there must be some merit to it.

I just have one question. When you say "immediate results" what does that mean? In other words, does cleaning to a specific scope image correlate to performance on target?

The reason I ask is that I have seen $300 Savage rifles with bores that look very much less than pristine but shoot sub moa and better cleaned with nothing more than Hoppe's No. 9.

Immediate results as I stated was for your cleaning process. I would imagen shots on target compared to ones barrel cleaning process and tracked with a bore scope is the direction I am going. Again its part of the learning curve with the tools we have at hand.

 

[cmysix]

Where you at? I have just finished a new batch of ED'S RED, I sell eight ounce bottles, but I'll sell any amount, top of the line ingredients,

 

[DShortt]

Many precision shooters agree with you which suggests that there must be some merit to it.

I just have one question. When you say "immediate results" what does that mean? In other words, does cleaning to a specific scope image correlate to performance on target?

The reason I ask is that I have seen $300 Savage rifles with bores that look very much less than pristine but shoot sub moa and better cleaned with nothing more than Hoppe's No. 9.

How come I never see one of those Savage guys at the range?

I've been watching, bunch of 2MOAs but that's about it.

 

[K22]

How come I never see one of those Savage guys at the range?

I've been watching, bunch of 2MOAs but that's about it.

You've been at the wrong range.

Randy shoots bug holes with his Savage Axis, 6.5 Creedmoor. Only aftermarket upgrade is a Timmey trigger. Makes we wonder why I paid $700 for a Douglas match barrel. There is another guy at this range with a 223 Axis, not quite bug holes but sub 1 moa. Go figure.

 

[DShortt]

You've been at the wrong range.

Randy shoots bug holes with his Savage Axis, 6.5 Creedmoor. Only aftermarket upgrade is a Timmey trigger. Makes we wonder why I paid $700 for a Douglas match barrel. There is another guy at this range with a 223 Axis, not quite bug holes but sub 1 moa. Go figure.

So those are exceptions but not the rule, correct?

I see guys with factory Savages at the range regularly. The accuracy is fine for the majority of hunting applications. Sub MOA? No.
I believe what I see, not what I hear. I've got a Savage that will shoot under 1/2 MOA. It's not factory. Not even close. And I don't discount any shot. No such thing as a flyer if I'm evaluating the accuracy of a rifle.

 

[K22]

So those are exceptions but not the rule, correct?

I see guys with factory Savages at the range regularly. The accuracy is fine for the majority of hunting applications. Sub MOA? No.

Maybe, I don't know - I haven't done a study of Savage shooters at the club - just some informal observations but your point is well taken.

Personally, I've never owned a Savage so I can't attest to this from personal experience, only what I've seen at the range with some fellow shooters. There was a guy shooting one of those tactical Savage rigs that shot very well too but I haven't seen him in over a year at the range and I'm there 2 to 3 days a week, weather permitting.

 

[Cecil S.]

Maybe, I don't know - I haven't done a study of Savage shooters at the club - just some informal observations but your point is well taken.

Personally, I've never owned a Savage so I can't attest to this from personal experience, only what I've seen at the range with some fellow shooters. There was a guy shooting one of those tactical Savage rigs that shot very well too but I haven't seen him in over a year at the range and I'm there 2 to 3 days a week, weather permitting.

So have you asked him if he uses a bore scope ?

 

[K22]

So have you asked him if he uses a bore scope ?

Yea, he has one for what purpose I don't know because I don't think it's for verifying cleaning adequacy. We did look down his barrel a couple of times at the range merely to demonstrate to me how the device works. I was impressed with the clarify of the images and I can see why a lot of guys like these devices.

You would get the hives if I told you what he used to clean his rifle. Well, I tell you anyway - mineral spirits! He is a gunblue490 discipline.

I meet a lot of interesting guys at the range - it's kind of my second home. Made some friends. They all know me, I'm the guy who shoots off the homemade shooting cross sticks who is the Ground Hog Man. If there are any of you from CSA reading this post, you know who I am.

 

[Dave M.]

There's no magic to cleaning a barrel. I have a routine with Butch's and bronze brushes that gives me predictable results and an idea of what each barrel wants or needs. The majority of shooters that obsess over cleaning and cleaning products would be shocked to see how BR shooters maintain their barrels.

But all of this stuff works. The only 'unobtanium' stuff is in the jar with the red top.

Good shootin' -Al

I’m not proud of this and I’m certainly not bragging, but I know I personally have more cleaning solvents and solutions and witch’s brews known to man…not to mention an entire wall of brushes. My peg board of cleaning supplies looks like the one at your local gun store, lol.

 

[Cecil S.]

Yea, he has one for what purpose I don't know because I don't think it's for verifying cleaning adequacy. We did look down his barrel a couple of times at the range merely to demonstrate to me how the device works. I was impressed with the clarify of the images and I can see why a lot of guys like these devices.

You would get the hives if I told you what he used to clean his rifle. Well, I tell you anyway - mineral spirits! He is a gunblue490 discipline.

I meet a lot of interesting guys at the range - it's kind of my second home. Made some friends. They all know me, I'm the guy who shoots off the homemade shooting cross sticks who is the Ground Hog Man. If there are any of you from CSA reading this post, you know who I am.

Soooooo.......cleaning methods aside bore scope shows instant results of what ever chosen cleaning method. Did you learn anything with your question? Seems the answer was always right in front of you.

 

[Cecil S.]

I’m not proud of this and I’m certainly not bragging, but I know I personally have more cleaning solvents and solutions and witch’s brews known to man…not to mention an entire wall of brushes. My peg board of cleaning supplies looks like the one at your local gun store, lol.

Dont buy a bore scope it will make you a mental case........LOL Carbon ring.........wwwhhhhaaattt.

 

[DShortt]

Dont buy a bore scope it will make you a mental case........LOL Carbon ring.........wwwhhhhaaattt.

Heck, yeah! Just drive without headlights at night, too. What you can't see can't be a problem, right?