Cleaning Copper Fowling

[jim_k]

I've had excellent results with Bore Tech's Copper remover, CU+2, after first removing carbon with their carbon remover, C4. This product is odorless. The dwell time I've found most effective is about 10 to 15 minutes which a little longer than the maker recommends.

I second the recommendation on Bore Tech Copper remover. Try a small bottle from Midway, then see if it compares well to the others you test.

 

[cem]

Anything strong enough to do some good is almost surely strong enough to do some harm. For a first cut, consider that ammonia and chlorine make a Phosgene style war gas. That is don't mix something like Sweet's 7.62 and Gun Scrubber or the many automotive brake cleaner sprays or anything where the contents aren't listed.

The years when Hoppe's #9 was the original Hoppe's #9 formula and contained the rather dangerous benzene, which helped crack the copper so it could be brushed out, are long gone - hence the rise of alternatives to do the job Hoppes#9 once did, but did no longer - but I'm a little leery of remaining possibilities. I don't much mix brands. I'm inclined to go along with those who plug the chamber to soak and watch for drying out when using strong ammonia and when I leave something in the bore overnight it's something like Shooter's Choice or Butch's that I trust to help or at least not hurt.

If I'm not in a hurry I'll let the rifle sit in a cradle for days or weeks and occasionally patch or brush as I find appropriate or more likely when I think of it. I do have a Gradient bore scope with extra bright light (the Minimag flashlight can be souped up but in my experience only at the cost of a color tinge the factory bright light has a better color spectrum) and 90 degree eyepiece. This helps me distinguish between cleaning the bore and cleaning copper off the rod and jag and brush. I follow Gale MacMillan's advice and limit use of JB to real need. Given that JB is a useful lapping compound to shoeshine fit barrel bushings on a 1911 and such I am satisfied that it not only polishes but does remove metal - that can be a good thing but it should always be a choice.

My bottom line is that if I am going to leave it I use a slower cleaner I think is safe if I am going to use something I'm not sure is safe I'm going to stand over it and keep after it.

I do believe, with some reason, that any and all of the products currently on the market, including the now ancient Ballistol do work. I've heard and credit enough stories that Kroil (which I once bought in multiple gallons for shop) is at least hard on Jo block finishes and machine ways that I don't use it for a soak but maybe mix with outboard motor carbon cleaners - Quicksilver - in a nod to tradition.

I do believe with some reason that some products do work a little faster than others but I'm not in so much hurry that it much matters to me. Like John Barsness and maybe his disciples, I don't clean as much in the field as I once did - don't shoot as much either - and CFE style powders and maybe jackets don't foul as much anyway. Cleaning between relays is another matter. There speed is worth some assumption of risk but then again the barrels don't really foul much anyway.

 

[ljmontano]

https://www.coretacsolutions.com/products_KG_KG12_TEST.htm

Reviews this this stuff-works no smell I would try KG1 for the carbon

 

[msinc]

I've had good luck with Wipe-Out. It sometimes takes several applications to get all the copper out. I put it in on a wet patch, leave it sit for 20-30 minutes and clean. Copper turns it blue. I always clean it out when finished and lightly oil the barrel.
View attachment 1154026View attachment 1154027

Don't take this wrong...some on here probably will anyway. I am not knocking your cleaning method, if it works for you keep on. I too believed, before I got a borescope, that those streaks of copper at the muzzle were a good indicator of both a copper fouled bore and a clean one when they were gone.
They certainly do indicate a copper fouled bore, but the muzzle is the last area of the barrel to get copper and by the time the bullet gets there the rifling has "engraved" into the jacket and is not rubbing with no where near the pressure it did just past the throat as it starts down the bore.
Borescope inspection proves that at the point where the copper is gone from the muzzle you may very well still see plenty halfway down the bore and maybe worse as you go on back to the throat. I suppose a barrel could be made such that it doesn't foul initially, yet picks up copper near the muzzle...that is an exception.
I know folks get tired of hearing that you don't really know if you have a clean bore unless you own a borescope and I too have better things to do with all that money...but what can be seen without one at the muzzle is the easiest to remove and first to come out normally. As an indicator it can mislead you too, I see guys look at the muzzle and say "nah, she aint fouling, there's no copper"...maybe not all the way out at the muzzle, and maybe not at all, but you don't know until you put "eyes on "the rest of it.

 

[PWS]

I absolutely RUINED a stainless barrel overnight with Butch's Bore Shine. My cleaning procedure at the time was to swab the bore with a wet patch and leave the rifle muzzle down overnight with the patch in the throat to keep the bore from drying. I didn't pay too close attention to the patch the next morning but fired the rifle that day and had immediate sticky extraction. Huge corrosion pits formed where the wet patch sat in the throat and there were scaly scabs of rust stuck to the patch.

I believe what happened was a simple galvanic reaction. The day before I had shot both jacketed and naked cast bullets and think there must have been both copper and lead fouling present. It was also rainy so there's a good chance water was present. I think it was the result of dissimilar metals in a strong electrolyte.

This was before Butch was bought by Lyman and when I reported what happened he blew me off like it was impossible. Needless to say, that was it for me and Butch's and I'm a LOT more careful about soaking solvents!!!!

 

[T-shooter]

Don't take this wrong...some on here probably will anyway. I am not knocking your cleaning method, if it works for you keep on. I too believed, before I got a borescope, that those streaks of copper at the muzzle were a good indicator of both a copper fouled bore and a clean one when they were gone.
They certainly do indicate a copper fouled bore, but the muzzle is the last area of the barrel to get copper and by the time the bullet gets there the rifling has "engraved" into the jacket and is not rubbing with no where near the pressure it did just past the throat as it starts down the bore.
Borescope inspection proves that at the point where the copper is gone from the muzzle you may very well still see plenty halfway down the bore and maybe worse as you go on back to the throat. I suppose a barrel could be made such that it doesn't foul initially, yet picks up copper near the muzzle...that is an exception.
I know folks get tired of hearing that you don't really know if you have a clean bore unless you own a borescope and I too have better things to do with all that money...but what can be seen without one at the muzzle is the easiest to remove and first to come out normally. As an indicator it can mislead you too, I see guys look at the muzzle and say "nah, she aint fouling, there's no copper"...maybe not all the way out at the muzzle, and maybe not at all, but you don't know until you put "eyes on "the rest of it.

I agree. A bore scope would certainly help to see the conditions near the chamber. I just put that old picture up to show that the cleaner does work. The cleaner turns blue in the presence of copper and I clean until there is no color. I know after having it coppered and cleaned, accuracy does come back in rifles I've used it in. A bore scope is probably in my future.

 

[KMart]

For a first cut, consider that ammonia and chlorine make a Phosgene style war gas.

Chlorine and ammonia are 2 base products that when mixed will make a product called hydrazine. Anhydrous Hydrazine can be used as a rocket fuel. Hydrazine Hydrate is used to make plant herbicides. Mixing household ammonia and bleach (caustic and chlorine) to use as a cleaning agent will produce very bad fumes in the house.

Phosgene is produced by mixing vaporized chlorine with carbon monoxide through a carbon bed catalyst.

I worked for years making and using both products.

 

[wbm]

This is extremely interesting. Is it possible we’ve bought into an urban myth?

Yep.

 

[Rat Rifle]

Perhaps I have been lucky, but I have never had any copper fouling that could not be easily removed with Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner. This includes cleaning Savage factory and other over the counter barrels. Use as directed, when the blue is gone, the copper is gone. What's not to like?

 

[CharlieNC]

I will continue to spend the money to purchase one can per year of Wipe Out foam to address the occasional copper cleaning need, vs experiment to save a few dollars and screw up a $700 barrel.

 

[JMayo]

Barnes CR-10 will clean it in less than an hr ... Not too bad of smell if you don't sniff it !

 

[nmkid]

https://www.coretacsolutions.com/products_KG_KG12_TEST.htm

Reviews this this stuff-works no smell I would try KG1 for the carbon

I tried KG-1 for carbon a few years back and...I haven't used anything but since!!

 

[nmkid]

I use Sweet's and see no reason to change. I have found that for cold bores I live it in for 15-20 minutes and 5-10 minutes for a warm bore. No problems so far.

 

[GSS]

Had the same discussion at savageshooters in September. Lilja Rifle Barrels
gave the following.


Q. What does Lilja Rifle Barrels think of the use of bore solvents with ammonia?

A. While we're aware of "bad press" associated with the use of cleaners with
ammonia as part of the solution, we have never seen any damage in one of our barrels
caused by the use of ammonia. The rumor is that copper-removing cleaners with ammonia
will pit and damage the interior surface of a barrel. Ammonia is very effective as a
copper remover. We use solvents, such as Butch's Bore Shine, to remove copper during
the break-in. We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again,
I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in
commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes
examination with our borescope.

I am glad to read this.

I have used Butch's Bore shine for years and I often leave it in / soaking for a couple days at a time to let the solvent do the work as opposed to my brushing / scrubbing / bore pasting more than needed. All for Stainless Steel AR15 based service rifle barrels.

I judge how well my cleaning process is doing by borescope, results on paper and excellent / expected barrel life for either button or cut rifled barrels.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Had the same discussion at savageshooters in September. Lilja Rifle Barrels
gave the following.


Q. What does Lilja Rifle Barrels think of the use of bore solvents with ammonia?

A. While we're aware of "bad press" associated with the use of cleaners with
ammonia as part of the solution, we have never seen any damage in one of our barrels
caused by the use of ammonia. The rumor is that copper-removing cleaners with ammonia
will pit and damage the interior surface of a barrel. Ammonia is very effective as a
copper remover. We use solvents, such as Butch's Bore Shine, to remove copper during
the break-in. We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again,
I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in
commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes
examination with our borescope.

if I was a barrel maker I would say the same thing they did. I used Sweets 7.62 ammonia based solvent on 2 HB savage barrels and they went from tiny groups to inch or more

 

[SPQR70AD]

Perhaps I have been lucky, but I have never had any copper fouling that could not be easily removed with Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner. This includes cleaning Savage factory and other over the counter barrels. Use as directed, when the blue is gone, the copper is gone. What's not to like?

yes for me the foaming bore cleaner is the best. no brushes needed. when I first got it I used it in my many military surplus rifles. green paint came out of them no brushing which may damage bores was used

 

[SPQR70AD]

Butch's contains 1-3% Ammonium Hydroxide. Household ammonia is usually around 10%.

You can use household ammonia, but you need to rewet it every 10 minutes or so to keep it from etching.

EDIT: I would suspect that heavy copper fowling that requires something that strong also has a fair amount of hard carbon. JB may be a better answer.

household ammonia is pretty weak compared to industrial ammonia. years ago I went on a janitor website and got the potent industrial stuff and I etched 2 of my barrels

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Sounds like you have serious barrel issues

 

[mauser284]

Everybody seems to have a favorite "snake oil" to clean copper fowling and most cost $2-$4 an oz. It is my understanding it is the ammonia in the "snake oil" that dissolves the copper. It is also my understanding that the ammonia will not hurt the barrel, some let it soak overnight. So, why not use straight household cleaning ammonia at $2 a quart? just asking

Bill "Hey, I'm in FL with nothing to do"

You need much stronger ammonia than you get for $2 at your local store. Ammonia can attack steel especialy if it is has any inclusions or impurities. For example Remington used to use some real junk steel for decades in their barrels and strong ammonia would eat those barrels like a fat kid eats cupcakes! So while you do not need 20%+ you need more than 2% for sure.

I make my own bore cleaner as taught be Ol'Sarge/Old Sarage but he died decades ago and I have modified from his initial recipe. He was from New Zealand and a mentor of mine. It progressed over the years but I think it is not safe to encourage most people to do this.

You can still buy out of print books on the cheap that teach you how to make just about everything you would ever buy in a store from raw ingredients.

The main components in most copper cleaners not polishes and such are ammonia like ammonia persulfate, ammonium hydroxide or strong peroxides. Toss in some Glycol Ethers and 1-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone as general sovents and "Bob's your uncle". The problem is the ancient steels still in use in the industry and the purity of the steel itself. 5% will take forever, 10% will work quickly and if the steel is very pure will not etch the steel. How do yo know what the quality of the steel is? 20% can be safe but that is at the raged edge of safe and if your steel is remotely questionable it can attack the steel. When using 8xxx or 17-PH type steels for mandrels for copper plating a part from electroplating after the part is removed from the mandrel the above chemicals are used to clean the mandrel with out etching the steel. That is why over the counter products are so weak. They do not want you the consumer to need knowledge to use product safely and they do not want you to destroy your barrel if the steel is questionable.

Hatcher used 20% Ammonia just like you can purchase from Amazon but he had mixed results and was working on rifles ready to be sent back to be re-barreled so if it attacked the barrel and ruined it he was not at a loss!

 

[K22]

I second the recommendation on Bore Tech Copper remover. Try a small bottle from Midway, then see if it compares well to the others you test.

Yea - for sure - for years I used Shooters Choice and believed I was removing the copper because I could smell the distinct odor of ammonia and as we all know, ammonia removes copper.

When I switched to Bore Tech products because the odor was bothering the wifey I couldn't believe the significant difference in effectiveness both with their Carbon and Copper removers.