Chronographs for measuring 5000 fps and higher?

[extremeaccuracy]

I wanted to check on this forum to see if anyone has had any decent results measuring bullet speeds up to and in excess of 5000 fps. I have tested numerous chronographs that say they can measure up to these speeds but have not had good results with any of them. I am using small caliber rounds (14 caliber) so I know they may be harder to sense. Several chronographs on the market say they can measure up to these speeds but I have found that to NOT be the case.


If you have a chronograph that does measure up to and over 5000 fps can you please tell me what make and model it is? Could you also tell me what caliber bullets you are measuring with it? Has it been reliable during your testing? Have you tested it to see if it is actually measuring the bullet speed and not just the muzzle blast? (set the chronograph 50 feet or more from the muzzle to ensure you are measuring actual bullet speed.)


Thank you very much for any information you can share on your chronograph readings at or above 5000 fps.



Carl C.



Extreme Accuracy

www.14caliber.com

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

garmin i think has picked up 5300 so far. i know for a fact its gotten 5,100ish though.

 

[Old Navy]

What caliber/loads are going that fast?

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

What caliber/loads are going that fast?

20 creedmoor

 

[Kevin1990]

What caliber/loads are going that fast?

.22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer. Lol

 

[extremeaccuracy]

Sigma, did you confirm that the Garmin unit is actually reading the bullet speed and not the muzzle blast? Did you place the unit down range 50 yards or greater to see if it is reading just the bullet speed? I didn't have any success as soon as I stepped over 4850 fps during ladder testing. I'm not sure if the 14 calibers are too small for it to read? The gentleman that let me shoot across it was using it for slower speed rounds and had never tried it at high velocity.

So far the only unit I have found to give any results at the 5000 fps level is a set of Oehler 35p's that I run in tandem with alternating spacing on the same rail. It's a bit of a pain to set up but so far it’s the only unit I have found that will work at these speeds. I've bought and tried numerous units with IR screens, blast baffles, radar screens and the likes but have had very poor success getting readings from them.

Most of them just sit there giving no readings or an occasional reading from the muzzle blast if located to close to the gun.

Thanks for any information you can share about your chronograph results at the higher speeds,

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com

 

[marazzi59]

Are you speaking to any manufacturers?

 

[extremeaccuracy]

Sigma, Wow if you’re hitting over 5000fps with a 20 caliber your doing something right. Can you tell me what twist rate barrel you’re using in your 20 Creedmoor? What make and weight bullet are you using in it? What powder are you using? Pushing a 20 cal to these speeds is pretty impressive to say the least. Most of the guys I know, including myself, shooting the overbore 20 calibers hit the wall well before the 5000 fps mark.

What make of barrel is it and what land configuration did you go with? I’m assuming you must be running a barrel 28” or longer. Is it a progressive twist?

I have a couple friends shooting the 20 Creedmoor and they have lot of questions for you if you have time.

What type of coatings are you using on your bullets and bore?

Thanks for any information you can share,

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com

 

[extremeaccuracy]

marazzi59, I have worked with a couple chronograph manufactures in the past. I Beta tested some equipment for them with some of our test guns here. The majority of the testing was done with optical style sensors. We tried utilizing IR flood screens, lengthening sensor spacing, over clocking and lots of blast baffles but had very poor results for the most part. I do have to thank them for at least trying though.

As for the Doppler styles, I have sent emails to Garmin requesting information on what calibers they tested their unit on (to the 5000 fps level) but have still not received any response from them. I contacted both Lab radar and Magneto speed and they confirmed their units will not read bullets at these velocities.

I don't know if we are just unlucky here or if some of these manufactures over estimate what their systems can do.

Thanks and as always stay on target,

Carl C.
Extreme Accuracy

www.14caliber.com

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

i am referencing this video, it correlates perfectly to the magneto (which physically cannot pick up muzzle blast)

@orkan

 

[orkan]

Sigma, Wow if you’re hitting over 5000fps with a 20 caliber your doing something right. Can you tell me what twist rate barrel you’re using in your 20 Creedmoor? What make and weight bullet are you using in it? What powder are you using? Pushing a 20 cal to these speeds is pretty impressive to say the least. Most of the guys I know, including myself, shooting the overbore 20 calibers hit the wall well before the 5000 fps mark.

What make of barrel is it and what land configuration did you go with? I’m assuming you must be running a barrel 28” or longer. Is it a progressive twist?

I have a couple friends shooting the 20 Creedmoor and they have lot of questions for you if you have time.

What type of coatings are you using on your bullets and bore?

Thanks for any information you can share,

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com

I have been summoned by @Sigma

He is speaking of our .20 Primal.

It is a .20 Creedmoor improved of my design. Some information can be found here in this video, as well as others on our channel.

I have not tested anything in .14cal, but I can confirm that both the magnetospeed and garmin units will do over 5,000 FPS quite reliably with .20cal. I currently have not tested either unit in .20cal past 5,350fps. I am currently searching for a chronograph that will read in excess of 6,000fps for some other projects I'm working on.

The .20 Primal is a passion project which took a lot of effort and expense to see realized. I only intend to share load data and development data with customers that have purchased rifle systems and die packages.


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[extremeaccuracy]

Sigma and Orkan, thank you for the information!!! Are all of the results over 5000 fps with solids? Do you have any readings over 5000 fps with lead cored bullets? I try not to shoot solid core bullets in any of my sub caliber rifles. Solids are very hard on the riflings in the small bore rifles. There's just not enough give to not wear out the riflings very quickly in the 14 and 12 caliber bores. The accuracy is also limited by the solid core bullets in small calibers.

I have several friends shooting the 20 Creedmoor so I'm familiar with the cartridge. Are you getting good accuracy out of the solids running them over 400,000 rpms? Are you coating the bullets? As soon as I hit 450,000 to 500,000 rpms I usually have to use coatings on the bullets, (Moly (Molybdenum disulfide), Boron (hexagonal Boron nitride, HBN), or Danzac (Tungsten disulfide, WS2) to keep the jackets together on the lead core rounds at those RPM's.

Moly has been my go to as soon as I hit 500,000 RPM's. Finding a chronograph that can read them reliably has been a MAJOR challenge! They either measure the muzzle blast or the con trail of the bullet as it heads down range instead of the actual bullet.

When I previously contacted magnetospeed about speeds above 5000 fps they told me that it would not be able to read at those speeds. Garmin has still not answered my emails in its regard. I tried shooting over a Garmin at 1 point and had zero readings. Not sure if it is the bullet size or if the conditions or unit was not up to the task. I will revisit testing over one in hopes it is up to the challenge. I will also look into shooting over a magnetospeed to see if it can pick up the bullets.

Not having a chronograph that can reliably read bullet speed has been a real pain. Having the barrel strain gauges and laptop hooked up to the test barrels has been a help but getting consistent bullet speeds is a necessity for our bullet designs.

Thank you again for the information and hope VERY much to finally find a chronograph that can measure bullet speeds at the higher levels.

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com

 

[extremeaccuracy]

Orkan, have you been shooting past the 300 yard mark in the 20 Primal with the high speed rounds (5000 to 5300 fps)? Have your results past the 300 yard mark with the high speed rounds show any unexpected drift? Is it in the same consistent direction if your experiencing unexplained wind drift results?

I'm curious to see if your experiencing any of the same effects to high RPM bullets during testing.

Thanks for any information you can share,

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com

 

[59FLH]

I wanted to check on this forum to see if anyone has had any decent results measuring bullet speeds up to and in excess of 5000 fps. I have tested numerous chronographs that say they can measure up to these speeds but have not had good results with any of them. I am using small caliber rounds (14 caliber) so I know they may be harder to sense. Several chronographs on the market say they can measure up to these speeds but I have found that to NOT be the case.


If you have a chronograph that does measure up to and over 5000 fps can you please tell me what make and model it is? Could you also tell me what caliber bullets you are measuring with it? Has it been reliable during your testing? Have you tested it to see if it is actually measuring the bullet speed and not just the muzzle blast? (set the chronograph 50 feet or more from the muzzle to ensure you are measuring actual bullet speed.)


Thank you very much for any information you can share on your chronograph readings at or above 5000 fps.



Carl C.



Extreme Accuracy

www.14caliber.com

If you can locate an older BMC-19, they are advertised good to 6500/fps.
An Oehler 36 with 57 Light Screens may do it, call and talk to them. (Ken, Justin, or Gary)
Or build one of these (https://www.nist.gov/laboratories/tools-instruments/reference-ballistic-chronograph) it will do it and its very accurate in that it uses two transitions, both the front of the projectile and the rear, and has the capability to filter out the ejecta often associated with ballistic chronograph errors.
The radar units run up against limits from the FCC.

 

[orkan]

Orkan, have you been shooting past the 300 yard mark in the 20 Primal with the high speed rounds (5000 to 5300 fps)? Have your results past the 300 yard mark with the high speed rounds show any unexpected drift? Is it in the same consistent direction if your experiencing unexplained wind drift results?

I have not spent a lot of time on the lightweight bullets. Just enough to get some basic data. I'm shooting them out of a fast twist barrel, and have not played with them in a proper twist yet. Performance has been erratic for sure. I can hit stuff with them, but it's not stable. I have spent almost all of my time with 39 sierras, 40 vmax, and the vast majority of my time with 55gr berger.

The lightweight bullets going fast are just not compelling to me. Every shot with them has "unexplained wind drift." Out here on the prairie, my shots are long, and the lightweight bullets suffer terribly at any speed. The concept of shooting past 300yds with a bullet that light where I live is pretty comical, as they don't even work well inside 300yds most days. Hitting prairie dogs with 95% or greater certainty past 200yds with the quantity and frequency of wind we have here with those itty bitty bullets just isn't a reality. ...and I really don't enjoy missing. It's probably my least favorite thing. So all serious development efforts for the .20 Primal have been around the heavier offerings.

If you can locate an older BMC-19, they are advertised good to 6500/fps.

I had one... and it wasn't capable of it at the time. However, mine wasn't called a bmc back then... it was called a PVM-21.

Picture from over a decade ago.


It was not nearly as good a unit as the magnetospeed, so I got rid of it promptly afterward. I won't be going back to that kind of tech unless it's full size walk-through tunnel type.


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[extremeaccuracy]

Yeah, the wind is a prairie dogs best friend…

From my findings there are 2 ways to fight wind drift. Heavier projectiles or get the bullet there faster. People are often surprised at the lack of wind drift from very high speed rounds. Since the bullet is only impacted by the wind for mere fractions of a second it isn't affected as much as a slower bullet. If you push past 200 yards with the light weight bullets they are slowing down very rapidly and the wind really starts to affect them from there on out.

I shoot the 14 caliber with 17.5 grain bullets on prairie dog shoots out to 300 yards in eastern Montana fairly often. The wind drift is about the same as the 222 and 223 at the same distances. From 200 yards and under I very rarely dope much for the wind. On the 8.5 grain to 12.5 grain bullets out to 150 yards I never dope for the wind.

On shots that are longer range with good back stops, I too switch over to the larger over bore rifles with heavier bullets to compensate for the slowing bullet speeds and the effects of wind. (Tac-20, 20 BR, 22-250 Imp., 22-284 Win, 6-284)

The BIG advantage to the very light weight bullets in the small sub calibers is their ability to be utilized in areas where bullet travel needs to be limited and chances of ricochet are as close to zero as possible. (Cattle fields, flat ground, hard ground, feed lots or open horizons). From our testing with the 10.5 gr. and 8.5 grain bullets they will not travel past the 750 yard range no matter what angle they are fired at.

We have ranchers and farmers that utilize us with them to help clean out areas of pests where traps, poisons and conventional firearms are not well suited.

The fun thing with them is that you see the bullet blow up the target in the scope before you even know the gun went off. With almost zero recoil from them you watch it all happen in the scope at those ranges.

Please keep us posted if you revisit the high speed testing and thank you VERY much for the information on your test results,

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy

www.14caliber.com

 

[orkan]

I agree. The safety of a very light projectile being launched at high velocity is a real thing which virtually eliminates ricochet. I have employed similar tactics many times! I can certainly envision the tiny .14cal offerings are the epitome of that line of thinking.

Indeed I'll try to remember our conversation when I revisit the light bullets. Sourcing a .20cal blank with a suitably slow twist for the 24gr NTX at these velocities is the next step. Not as easy to come by as I had hoped.

Honestly, I do believe there is a viability to this, and while it might not be in the 5,300 FPS+ range, I do think a real workable scenario exists in the 5,000 FPS range. Much more testing is needed. If my prairie dogs would come out closer than 400yds ever... I'd have much more motivation to press into it.


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[extremeaccuracy]

PS: if you do revisit the light weight bullets in the future we did not see any gain in success with progressive twist rate barrels or with with polygonal rifling configurations. I personally don't think either is worth the expense or hassle from what we saw here, but results always very. Poly tipped bullets did not perform well in our testing either. The heat load on the bullets doesn't seem to bode well with poly tips from our findings. Bullet coatings and heavy oxidizing of the cores has been our biggest help with the lead cored bullets and accuracy up to this point.

As you can see from these targets, initial barrel cleaning results from a clean bore is an issue with the very light weight bullets in the sub calibers as well. A fouling round is needed to get the barrel pressures to stabilize in the tiny bores. This was from a ladder test on some prototype 8.5 grain bullets in a 14/221 Walker with a new jacket and core configuration. The flyers in both targets are the first round post cleaning. The barrel trace software and strain gauge showed a pressure difference but without a consistent chronograph to pick up the bullet speed its been a challenge to fine tune.