Chrono-induced sickness

[Bluetick Lab]

I have a hunting load that I developed over the spring/summer for my .243 bolt gun. 42.2 grains of IMR4350 under an 80-grain Barnes TTSX seated 0.100" off the lands. It was the second or third load I ever developed in my short reloading career, and I did it without a chronograph. It was a bit of an expensive effort, going through almost 70 bullets trying to make Hybrid 100V work before switching to IMR4350. But once I switched I tried the OCW method and found a load fairly quickly that shoots 0.75" five-shot groups at 100 yards. That's plenty good for hunting whitetails here in New York.

But I got a Magnetospeed Sporter recently and just for fun ran the Satterlee method with this bullet and powder using 0.3-grain increments. Identical 3131-fps readings at 42.0 and 42.3 grains were not a surprise, given the good groups I've already seen at 42.2 grains. I went up as far as 44.4 grains, exercising some caution because I had read that the charge range I was working with (42.0 to 46.0 grains published by Barnes) was somewhat outdated and might be a little hot. Plus, I was hearing the powder crunch during bullet seating starting at 42.9 grains so I was well into compressed load range by 44.4.

But I still wasn't seeing any pressure signs at 44.4 and I had gained 150 fps over the 42.2 grain load. Looks like I might be approaching or even in a higher node, as the 44.1 grain and 44.4 grain velocities were 3285 and 3293 fps, respectively. I think I'll try going up further just to see where things go.

Now, 3130 fps means I can zero an inch high at 100 yards and be an inch low at 200, which is probably as far as I'll shoot. There's one spot on our property where I could get a 250-yard shot at a deer, but it's unlikely and still quite manageable. And velocity at 250 yards should be around 2400 fps, well above the 1800 fps I've read is minimum for reliable terminal performance by the TTSX. So why do I need an extra 150 fps? It only reduces my drop by 0.5" at 200 yards and 0.8" at 250. Bullet expansion isn't going to be any more dramatic or effective. There isn't a lot of performance to be gained.

Because it's 150 fps faster, that's why. That's what having a chronograph has done to me. Turned me into a freaking speed-seeking geek. Ignorance was bliss and I didn't even know it.

So if you're thinking of getting your first chronograph, you've been warned. There may not be a cure once you've caught the disease.

 

[MikeWhy]

I hesitate to recommend this to someone already self diagnosed as OCD, but here goes. I offer it in the spirit of forwarding your development efforts:

[Rocket2MyLuna]

www.grtools.de

 

[Jager]

The more things you can measure, the more things you will measure. Not all of those things matter.

That said, I consider affordable, user friendly chronographs to be one of the three most important developments to happen to the shooting world during my lifetime. Most of us here went decades, and loaded countless rounds, without benefit of one. But having tasted the apple, I cannot imagine going back to doing load development without one.

Welcome to the dark side!

 

[INTJ]

I have a hunting load that I developed over the spring/summer for my .243 bolt gun. 42.2 grains of IMR4350 under an 80-grain Barnes TTSX seated 0.100" off the lands. It was the second or third load I ever developed in my short reloading career, and I did it without a chronograph. It was a bit of an expensive effort, going through almost 70 bullets trying to make Hybrid 100V work before switching to IMR4350. But once I switched I tried the OCW method and found a load fairly quickly that shoots 0.75" five-shot groups at 100 yards. That's plenty good for hunting whitetails here in New York.

But I got a Magnetospeed Sporter recently and just for fun ran the Satterlee method with this bullet and powder using 0.3-grain increments. Identical 3131-fps readings at 42.0 and 42.3 grains were not a surprise, given the good groups I've already seen at 42.2 grains. I went up as far as 44.4 grains, exercising some caution because I had read that the charge range I was working with (42.0 to 46.0 grains published by Barnes) was somewhat outdated and might be a little hot. Plus, I was hearing the powder crunch during bullet seating starting at 42.9 grains so I was well into compressed load range by 44.4.

But I still wasn't seeing any pressure signs at 44.4 and I had gained 150 fps over the 42.2 grain load. Looks like I might be approaching or even in a higher node, as the 44.1 grain and 44.4 grain velocities were 3285 and 3293 fps, respectively. I think I'll try going up further just to see where things go.

Now, 3130 fps means I can zero an inch high at 100 yards and be an inch low at 200, which is probably as far as I'll shoot. There's one spot on our property where I could get a 250-yard shot at a deer, but it's unlikely and still quite manageable. And velocity at 250 yards should be around 2400 fps, well above the 1800 fps I've read is minimum for reliable terminal performance by the TTSX. So why do I need an extra 150 fps? It only reduces my drop by 0.5" at 200 yards and 0.8" at 250. Bullet expansion isn't going to be any more dramatic or effective. There isn't a lot of performance to be gained.

Because it's 150 fps faster, that's why. That's what having a chronograph has done to me. Turned me into a freaking speed-seeking geek. Ignorance was bliss and I didn't even know it.

So if you're thinking of getting your first chronograph, you've been warned. There may not be a cure once you've caught the disease.

I don't chase velocity, I chase what shoots the smallest and the most consistently. That said, many of us think Barnes 1800 fps minimum is a little low for a TTSX. I have taken several animals with TTSXs, and the performance inside of 200 yds has been awesome.

A few years back I shot a small buck bedded at 435 yds with a 168 TTSX. The velocity and impact would have been a little above 1800 fps. When we were dressing the deer it didn't appear like the bullet had expanded at all. Granted, a 30 caliber hole through a deer will kill it fairly well, but the tissue damage was minimal.

So for a .243 TTSX, I would indeed try to find the higher node

 

[caihlen]

I think it’s really interesting that we split between “look at what the target is telling you” and ES and SD rule supreme.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have a hunting load that I developed over the spring/summer for my .243 bolt gun. 42.2 grains of IMR4350 under an 80-grain Barnes TTSX seated 0.100" off the lands. It was the second or third load I ever developed in my short reloading career, and I did it without a chronograph. It was a bit of an expensive effort, going through almost 70 bullets trying to make Hybrid 100V work before switching to IMR4350. But once I switched I tried the OCW method and found a load fairly quickly that shoots 0.75" five-shot groups at 100 yards. That's plenty good for hunting whitetails here in New York.

But I got a Magnetospeed Sporter recently and just for fun ran the Satterlee method with this bullet and powder using 0.3-grain increments. Identical 3131-fps readings at 42.0 and 42.3 grains were not a surprise, given the good groups I've already seen at 42.2 grains. I went up as far as 44.4 grains, exercising some caution because I had read that the charge range I was working with (42.0 to 46.0 grains published by Barnes) was somewhat outdated and might be a little hot. Plus, I was hearing the powder crunch during bullet seating starting at 42.9 grains so I was well into compressed load range by 44.4.

But I still wasn't seeing any pressure signs at 44.4 and I had gained 150 fps over the 42.2 grain load. Looks like I might be approaching or even in a higher node, as the 44.1 grain and 44.4 grain velocities were 3285 and 3293 fps, respectively. I think I'll try going up further just to see where things go.

Now, 3130 fps means I can zero an inch high at 100 yards and be an inch low at 200, which is probably as far as I'll shoot. There's one spot on our property where I could get a 250-yard shot at a deer, but it's unlikely and still quite manageable. And velocity at 250 yards should be around 2400 fps, well above the 1800 fps I've read is minimum for reliable terminal performance by the TTSX. So why do I need an extra 150 fps? It only reduces my drop by 0.5" at 200 yards and 0.8" at 250. Bullet expansion isn't going to be any more dramatic or effective. There isn't a lot of performance to be gained.

Because it's 150 fps faster, that's why. That's what having a chronograph has done to me. Turned me into a freaking speed-seeking geek. Ignorance was bliss and I didn't even know it.

So if you're thinking of getting your first chronograph, you've been warned. There may not be a cure once you've caught the disease.

To potentially offset this disease, now purchase a copy of QuickLoad reloading software. For loads predicted to be over MAX pressure, the program lights up the pressure output window in bright red, as a somewhat subliminal notification of potential disaster. It's funny how much having the little red light turn on can affect one's perception of a given load. It might just turn the trick to offset your newfound uncontrollable desire for more velocity.

 

[RegionRat]

The more things you can measure, the more things you will measure. Not all of those things matter.

It was only a moment ago in a different thread where I said that in school we learned about the psychology within corporations that take lots of data and don't use it or measure things that don't matter just because they have a way to measure them, even though they don't matter...

There is no question you can do load developments without a chronograph or pressure/strain gage. It has a long history of being done successfully for both short and long range work.

Done correctly, the use of velocity in load development is extremely valuable, especially when you start going out past 300 yards. If velocity data is used incorrectly, is it the fault of the velocity or the analyst?

Getting the priority straight between group/POI and velocity is a skill, just like learning to use the math and statistics the right way.

Just because someone punches numbers into a spreadsheet or calculator doesn't mean they understand statistics or development. SD, ES, sample size, etc., are often abused and misapplied on this and other forums, but that doesn't mean folks didn't close on a good load recipe. But, because that math was done wrong, even though there was a good outcome, can confuse and mislead folks who didn't have the benefit of the formal background.

Not every gun and load give the opportunity to align the best groups with the best velocity stats... sometimes they do... Depending on the shooting context and distance, that may not matter.

 

[ToddKS]

For a hunting load you need to consider the possibility that your ammo may be exposed to moisture which will affect pressure. I have seen this happen to shooters at PRS matches. The rain starts and you see guys beating bolts open because of the increased pressure from the water.

 

[WIB3]

For hunting purposes, nothing will replace a well placed shot. Added velocity will not correct a miss placed shot. For 10 years I have been hunting White-tailed deer in Pa with a .222 Contender. Never had one run more than 75yds. My long gun is a Marlin lever in .357 Mag. It also is quite deadly. An 80gr Barnes regardless of velocity put through the neck or behind the shoulder will be good steaks for the grill.

 

[INTJ]

I don't think SD is very useful. I don't think the typical three to five shot groups we test with are enough to give SD any meaning. And running SD over 20 shots shot at different times and/or days is meaningless because conditions are always changing.

Now ES does have some use. When we are shooting at 100 yds, we can easily put all the shots through one hole and have an ES of 50-60. It's not likely that will shoot well at longer distances. However, if we are developing loads at 1000 yds, we don't even need a chronograph.

So I think a reasonably low ES (20-30 fps or less) is an indicator that our 100 or 200 yd load will hold up reasonably well at longer distances. A very low ES means our loading technique is working well. A high ES means that something isn't right with our load.

I don't usually use a chronograph when developing loads at 1000 yds. That said, whenever I do chrono my best 1000 yd loads, the ES are usually high single digits or low teens. However, that is what we'd expect with well tuned BR prepped loads.

This brings up another point that has been discussed here. No one wins matches or cleanly takes game because of their good data numbers. I see all kinds of data overuse when applied to shooting. Charts and graphs showing all kinds of stuff. The way to shoot well is to practice and test loads on paper based on what we are seeing with a particular barrel. There is no shortcut to that and all the data analysis in the world won't get us there.

But hey, I am an INTJ. For me a theory is fine but it's meaningless if it doesn't work. So I get a rough idea with theory and data, and then go shoot to see what is really happening.

 

[JimSC]

My load development has evolved to a let the target tell the story point. I only do paper targets so the lowest node that keeps me supersonic is the one that I choose.

 

[garandman]

Reloading… the hobby for turning OCD ( obsessive compulsive disorder ) into OCD ( Obsession caused death ).

 

[Bluetick Lab]

I hesitate to recommend this to someone already self diagnosed as OCD, but here goes. I offer it in the spirit of forwarding your development efforts:

[Rocket2MyLuna]

www.grtools.de

Been tinkering with it since before I got the chrono, obviously not using it anywhere near its full potential. The program says I'm just over max pressure, but I'm not getting any signs (no primer cratering, no ejector marks, bolt lift is normal) and my velocity is below published max. If I go any higher it will only be another step or two.

 

[Mauser06]

I've been shooting my bow over my labradar. Why? Because I have one. Lol.


I don't get wound up in what it says for the most part. But it's a tool.

I do use it to ensure I'm getting enough velocity for expansion for handgun rounds and hunting bullets.


I don't go chasing speed. There's just no reason to. Load it where she is happy. If you need more performance, it's a good reason to build another rifle.

 

[Bluetick Lab]

I don't chase velocity, I chase what shoots the smallest and the most consistently. That said, many of us think Barnes 1800 fps minimum is a little low for a TTSX. I have taken several animals with TTSXs, and the performance inside of 200 yds has been awesome.

A few years back I shot a small buck bedded at 435 yds with a 168 TTSX. The velocity and impact would have been a little above 1800 fps. When we were dressing the deer it didn't appear like the bullet had expanded at all. Granted, a 30 caliber hole through a deer will kill it fairly well, but the tissue damage was minimal.

So for a .243 TTSX, I would indeed try to find the higher node

Accuracy definitely trumps velocity, my OP notwithstanding (hopefully it was recognized as being somewhat tongue in cheek). If I can get both, great. If the higher node produces bigger groups, I'll stick with the load I already have.

And I'm an ESFP!

 

[INTJ]

Accuracy definitely trumps velocity, my OP notwithstanding (hopefully it was recognized as being somewhat tongue in cheek). If I can get both, great. If the higher node produces bigger groups, I'll stick with the load I already have.

And I'm an ESFP!

I guess my point was that while I don't chase velocity, more velocity is better with TTSXs.

I love MBTI!! It was very eye-opening and helpful for me.

 

[MikeWhy]

Been tinkering with it since before I got the chrono, obviously not using it anywhere near its full potential. The program says I'm just over max pressure, but I'm not getting any signs (no primer cratering, no ejector marks, bolt lift is normal) and my velocity is below published max. If I go any higher it will only be another step or two.

One of the first things to do is measure your fired brass and set the case volume to match.

The second thing to do, after noting the difference that makes in the calcs, is to measure it a 3rd, 4th, and 5th times, just to be sure.

I use the chrono as a proxy for the strain gauge I haven't installed yet. I have in mind a number as I shoot off the first few rounds. If real world varies much from that, I re-evaluate what might have caused it.

The other thing I had in mind as I wrote initially was 4350 seems not so optimal for the very light bullets you mention. GRT can be useful to look at other powders. A slightly faster powder, CFE-223 perhaps, might be a better match. (Not to mention that I haven't quite learned the knack of throwing consistent charges with those big logs of kernels.)

Cheers!

 

[MikeWhy]

I love MBTI!! It was very eye-opening and helpful for me.

I'm of the opinion there are two kinds of people. Not 16.

 

[INTJ]

I'm of the opinion there are two kinds of people. Not 16.

There are definitely 16 personality types, but perhaps only two kinds of people.......

 

[358WCF]

Reloading… the hobby for turning OCD ( obsessive compulsive disorder ) into OCD ( Obsession caused death ).

I used to date a woman who had it. She called it CDO & said if you really had it you'd understand.