I just checked the oal for my 87gr v-max bullets and its jumped another .020 in the last 4oo rounds fired. It started with a oal at 2.315 2000 rounds ago and now it`s 2.356, that means i got to jump about .030 to have any type of neck tention. Looks like a set back is imminent but my `smith`s up to his neck in hunting guns and i don`t want to waist the rest of fall waiting for a fixer-up. My question is, is that normal for a throght to go .050 in 2000 shots or do I need to do something diffrent next time. I`ve shot only varget and H4895 the last 1500 and put 20 naked bullets down her, the rest were self molly coated. I`m starting to think all the heavy cleaning i had to do to get all that stuff out of there could be the reason, I never shot it real hot and cleaned it every 100+ shots. BY the way, it`s a Douglas barel, is that a good life span for a mid-level bbl?
chasing lands in a 6br?
- Thread starter patchhound
- Start date
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I think that's a lot of erosion for a 6BR, though the Douglas's steel may be part of the issue. 500 rounds through my PacNor and the measurement to lands with my Stoney Point has only moved about .004". Naked bullets with 105 scenars, 30.3 Varget.
I don't brush and use Wipe-Out for about 4 hours after 35-50 rounds,a day's shooting).
I don't brush and use Wipe-Out for about 4 hours after 35-50 rounds,a day's shooting).
Assuming you are using same batch of Vmax?If you are not then i have often found a swing of 5 thou difference on ogive measurement from batch to batch on Hornady vmaxes! I know my next comment will go against proven research but the only time I used home grown moly ammo My 6br showed alarming wear!! I dont moly any more.cheers onehole
Thanks onehole,
I`m starting to think the molly was a factor in this barrels short life! Last weekend I tested 40 rounds of naked bullets, both 87 v-max& 80 nos.bt`s with a load of 30-31.8 varget& H4895 to find a new load to shoot unmollied bullets. I found 2 good loads, both 31.8 H4895 that shot sub .5MOA @100yrds but my vel. was only 2870+\-50ES and not 3050 9ES like my old load with mollied bullets and a good throat was. I jumped both bullets .030.
What really gets me is after I cleaned the gun I checked the coal agian and it was 2.506! I just threw my arms in the air and now I think I`ll just use this bbl to fireform 6BRX brass with & get a new bbl, I`m waiting to get some feedback on my other pin to decied if BRX is what I want, IT wont hert my feelings going back with the 6br but I think I`m gona chuck my molly kit.
I`m starting to think the molly was a factor in this barrels short life! Last weekend I tested 40 rounds of naked bullets, both 87 v-max& 80 nos.bt`s with a load of 30-31.8 varget& H4895 to find a new load to shoot unmollied bullets. I found 2 good loads, both 31.8 H4895 that shot sub .5MOA @100yrds but my vel. was only 2870+\-50ES and not 3050 9ES like my old load with mollied bullets and a good throat was. I jumped both bullets .030.
What really gets me is after I cleaned the gun I checked the coal agian and it was 2.506! I just threw my arms in the air and now I think I`ll just use this bbl to fireform 6BRX brass with & get a new bbl, I`m waiting to get some feedback on my other pin to decied if BRX is what I want, IT wont hert my feelings going back with the 6br but I think I`m gona chuck my molly kit.
In two previous Shilen Select Match 6BR barrels my freebore grew by .030-.035 in 1000-1200 rounds using nothing but Varget and naked bullets. This is one of the reasons I prefer an .060 freebore to start with instead of going with .100 or more like some do in an effort to get that little bit extra case capacity.
I had been replacing barrels at the 1200 round mark, but since I've switched to Kreiger I'm going to see just how long this barrel will last since I consider it almost, if not a "Hummer".
Danny
I had been replacing barrels at the 1200 round mark, but since I've switched to Kreiger I'm going to see just how long this barrel will last since I consider it almost, if not a "Hummer".
Danny
you guys seem to be suffering a lot of throat wear and in addition are using varget.WhenI used varget and home grown moly that,s when i saw lots of erosion in my 6br{1/8 waltherusing105/107 heads}.Now perhaps its varget that is a contributing factor?I use nothing else but vit powders now and my relatively new 6ppc pacnor is showing only 1/2thou after 550 rounds! and my 6br pacnor only 3thou after 1100 rounds!
The pacnors are 5 twist supermatch barrels and as accurate as anything I,ve shot before.Thank you pacnor!.regards onehole{uk}
The pacnors are 5 twist supermatch barrels and as accurate as anything I,ve shot before.Thank you pacnor!.regards onehole{uk}
onehole said:
Back when I got the Stoney Point tool for my Rem700VS .223 the guy at Sinclairs made an interesting suggestion: While the tool is most useful for ascertaining seating depth for various slugs, obviously it's good for checking erosion. And he pointed out it'd be a good idea to save the original slug, which removes the problem of differing dimensions in different batches. -Rod-
I`ve read a lot of diffrent views about powder burn rate and throat erosion. some say fasters better, some say slowers better? I really think it was the heavy cleaning i did to get molly out that killed this bbl. The only thing I found that worked good was Rem bore cleaner which is abrasive. The strange thing is it happend all at once- my coal went from 2.336 to 2.506 with 200 shots???
Nobody`s got any vint. powder in my area but I wish they did so I could try it. I`ve never heard very much about H4895, I liked it better than varget, it gave me better vel. & ES with the 87gr v-max but it`s a faster powder and not good for the heavies.
For now I`m just gona get the chamber set back and see what happens with naked bullets & H4895. Is it worth doing?
Nobody`s got any vint. powder in my area but I wish they did so I could try it. I`ve never heard very much about H4895, I liked it better than varget, it gave me better vel. & ES with the 87gr v-max but it`s a faster powder and not good for the heavies.
For now I`m just gona get the chamber set back and see what happens with naked bullets & H4895. Is it worth doing?
Patchbound
I was waiting to see where this Thread was going. Now it seems to have settled so I can jump in. Last thing I want to do is blow some guy off sharing his astrophysical theory on metallurgy. So I will be a nice guy here. What I get so far with your attempts to remove moly you are changing your land contact with your loads. The moly has saved your barrel and it should be good for most of the rounds not yet fired. Try letting the lands seat your bullets. Shoot this if it works well which it normally does, stay there with your load. Move .005 in each time till you find your accuracy node. Never change your seating setting for the life of the barrel only change powder loads when you have checked a new lot of powder then match powder load by weight not density. You will never get all the moly out so let it ride.
[MODERATOR: Edited regarding load].
Thing is Patch Douglas is a great barrel. Quit trying to get the moly out but heavy clean like double cleaning that includes JB or Isso. Read my BR Cleaning thread on the Competition page it will give you some good ideas.
Shooters give up on barrels, barrels don't give up on shooters.
Stephen Perry
I was waiting to see where this Thread was going. Now it seems to have settled so I can jump in. Last thing I want to do is blow some guy off sharing his astrophysical theory on metallurgy. So I will be a nice guy here. What I get so far with your attempts to remove moly you are changing your land contact with your loads. The moly has saved your barrel and it should be good for most of the rounds not yet fired. Try letting the lands seat your bullets. Shoot this if it works well which it normally does, stay there with your load. Move .005 in each time till you find your accuracy node. Never change your seating setting for the life of the barrel only change powder loads when you have checked a new lot of powder then match powder load by weight not density. You will never get all the moly out so let it ride.
[MODERATOR: Edited regarding load].
Thing is Patch Douglas is a great barrel. Quit trying to get the moly out but heavy clean like double cleaning that includes JB or Isso. Read my BR Cleaning thread on the Competition page it will give you some good ideas.
Shooters give up on barrels, barrels don't give up on shooters.
Stephen Perry
thanks for the info Stephen.
I hoped to get the most life I could get from this bbl before I put it to rest. I`ve always jumped my bullets atleast .015 to get more bullet in the neck because the freebore was cut long. Do you think exess freebore could be the reason for erosion? If so I need to find a different reamer cuase I don`t use bullets bigger than 90`s...1\10 twist.
I hoped to get the most life I could get from this bbl before I put it to rest. I`ve always jumped my bullets atleast .015 to get more bullet in the neck because the freebore was cut long. Do you think exess freebore could be the reason for erosion? If so I need to find a different reamer cuase I don`t use bullets bigger than 90`s...1\10 twist.
Patchbound
Your freebore is within the limits for a BR cartidge. Try what most call full jam, letting the lands seat the bullet.
Stephen Perry
Your freebore is within the limits for a BR cartidge. Try what most call full jam, letting the lands seat the bullet.
Stephen Perry
I`ll do that when I get it back from my `smith. When I first got the bbl coal was 2.315 for a 87gr v-max, I should of kept them in the lands then. I don`t think I`m going to chuck that molly kit anymore either.
thanks, patchhound
p.s. do you use the stuff?
thanks, patchhound
p.s. do you use the stuff?
Forum Boss
Administrator
patchhound said:
I think something's amiss with that 2.506" measurement. Based on the 87gr V-max data I have, that would leave no shank,bearing surface) inside the neck. If you had 0.200" shank in neck, with a 1.550" trimmed case, your cartridge OAL would be 2.257". Are you including a comparator in your 2.506" measurement? You're talking about moving the throat 170 thousandths...
Regarding powder choice--Winchester 748 should give you good load density and velocity with the 87 V-Max. However it would not be my first choice for accuracy or consistency. There are many other good powders for that case and bullet. However, I would not count H4198 among them for the 6BR pushing an 87-grainer. H 4198 Powder is much too fast. QuickLOAD shows a max load of 27.0 grains,92% load density) and it's WAY down on max velocity compared to the slower powders.
This raises an issue that causes me concern. If one has not loaded for a particular cartridge and bullet, don't give load advice based on what works for something else. It's OK to say, "the Hodgdon online manual says X for an 87-grainer and 6BR, but I haven't tried it". But don't say "a caseful of Y powder works great in my PPC". Some newbies might be tempted to try that in a 6BR.
But let's not extrapolate from a PPC case to a 6mmBR Norma case, or from a 6BR to a .243 Win.
God forbid someone would stuff a caseful of H4198 behind an 87-grainer. That's just plain dangerous. QuickLOAD estimates pressure at 78,000+.
Moderator
First as you know I do not use a 6 BR for short range BR generally because it is not a competitive cartridge for short range BR. The 6BR is an overload cartridge that pressure curve is not conducive with powders such as 133. Too much engine trying to get the same result as a PPC. Quality of brass has always been the forte of the PPC. No good furin brass no PPC.
I read the Marquis everytime I open this Web so I know where you're interest lies. For distances past 300 yd yeah I might buy into a 6 BR. I even own a 6BRS barrel for my Rail. But MR. MOD why do you feel compelled to remove load data from my Post that the original Poster Patch was asking for. Tell me in this Post, no PM please.
I make it a habit of not recommending specific powder throws for safety purpose. Patch asked how powders like 4895 and other earlier powders would do. I was specific that 4198 was not to be used in full case applications but 4895 and 748 could be. Mod you underestimate powders you are not familiar with. 748 was and is a desirable powder in many BR applications. You and others, what I call technocrats, have glommed on to Varget which might be the Savior for the 6BR but it wasn't available when Newick won his IBS 3 Gun with the 6BR. You inferred that I recommended that I suggested that Patch use a full case of 4198 you know I never said that. Besides you are reading things off a chart about powders you are not familiar with. You touted Stu Harvey as a great a great 6BR shooter. I guarantee you that Stu has shot nore 748 and 4198 than all the Varget you have owned. He might shoot Varget too in his 6BR but he tried the lesser named powders also that are not advertied on this Web. No PM please I don't read them anymore.
I do not feel it is my place to comment on 6BR as it doesn't interest me. I got caught up in Patch's problem maintaining land contact which has nothing to with a specific cartridge. Beside that I feel I can handle what I am doing on 6mmBRRR. Watch the hook Mr Moderator.
Stephen Perry
First as you know I do not use a 6 BR for short range BR generally because it is not a competitive cartridge for short range BR. The 6BR is an overload cartridge that pressure curve is not conducive with powders such as 133. Too much engine trying to get the same result as a PPC. Quality of brass has always been the forte of the PPC. No good furin brass no PPC.
I read the Marquis everytime I open this Web so I know where you're interest lies. For distances past 300 yd yeah I might buy into a 6 BR. I even own a 6BRS barrel for my Rail. But MR. MOD why do you feel compelled to remove load data from my Post that the original Poster Patch was asking for. Tell me in this Post, no PM please.
I make it a habit of not recommending specific powder throws for safety purpose. Patch asked how powders like 4895 and other earlier powders would do. I was specific that 4198 was not to be used in full case applications but 4895 and 748 could be. Mod you underestimate powders you are not familiar with. 748 was and is a desirable powder in many BR applications. You and others, what I call technocrats, have glommed on to Varget which might be the Savior for the 6BR but it wasn't available when Newick won his IBS 3 Gun with the 6BR. You inferred that I recommended that I suggested that Patch use a full case of 4198 you know I never said that. Besides you are reading things off a chart about powders you are not familiar with. You touted Stu Harvey as a great a great 6BR shooter. I guarantee you that Stu has shot nore 748 and 4198 than all the Varget you have owned. He might shoot Varget too in his 6BR but he tried the lesser named powders also that are not advertied on this Web. No PM please I don't read them anymore.
I do not feel it is my place to comment on 6BR as it doesn't interest me. I got caught up in Patch's problem maintaining land contact which has nothing to with a specific cartridge. Beside that I feel I can handle what I am doing on 6mmBRRR. Watch the hook Mr Moderator.
Stephen Perry
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Administrator
I don't like to police threads. But this is my site, my dime, my liability if somebody misconstrues a forum post.
We have many newbies reading the forum, and many folks overseas for whom English is a second or third language.
I read your post about 4 times before I decided to delete load commentary. The reason is quite simple: 1) 4198 is not an appropriate powder choice for 87s and 90s in the BR case and: 2) I do not even want people to BEGIN to think they can extrapolate between short-line PPC loads,in slow-twist barrels) with light bullets to 6BR loads with medium to heavy bullets. There is so much that can go wrong in the #2 way of thinking that I don't want people to even start with that...
Stephen: I AM familiar with both powders in the 6BR and I have loaded and tested the 6BR with 87 grain V-Maxes. Have you? And if you read my posts in the past you would note that I have specifically recommended IMR4895 and H4895 and I personally directed Jackie Schmidt to use H4895 in our rail-gun testing. As for Varget, it would not be my first powder of choice for an 87 V-Max.
Bottom line--if I see something in somebody's post, anybody's post, that I think has the potential to induce someone to try a dangerous load, it goes.
Thanks moderator for your concern,
The way I understood what Steve was saying did`nt make me think that a full case of 4198 would be a safe load for a 6br but thats just me. I`ve reloaded ammo for almost 2 yrs and I know the dangers of loading too much fast powder!
I hope that solves something! I know I`m way far from being a pro. at my new skill of makeing ammo that makes a p-dog dead 600+ yrds away but as long as I don`t make me dead in the process I`m OK.
I alway`s apriciate,sp) any new wisdom I learn on this site, keep the word commin!!!
By the way, I think H4895 is a way better powder than varget for my 87gr v-max, I can`t wait to get my gun fixed to get into some jack rabbit blastin...
thanks, pathhound
The way I understood what Steve was saying did`nt make me think that a full case of 4198 would be a safe load for a 6br but thats just me. I`ve reloaded ammo for almost 2 yrs and I know the dangers of loading too much fast powder!
I hope that solves something! I know I`m way far from being a pro. at my new skill of makeing ammo that makes a p-dog dead 600+ yrds away but as long as I don`t make me dead in the process I`m OK.
I alway`s apriciate,sp) any new wisdom I learn on this site, keep the word commin!!!
By the way, I think H4895 is a way better powder than varget for my 87gr v-max, I can`t wait to get my gun fixed to get into some jack rabbit blastin...
thanks, pathhound
Mod
Sorry I am your chosen target today. As I said I was commenting on chasing the lands. I have no interest in the 6 BR and would not suggest any loads for it. You are way too testy for what you read into my Post.
What ever happened to the PPC page you were setting me up for? I saved the prototype you sent me if you forgot. I would like to see the page on the Shooters Forum where the action is. I made the mistake of telling my guys I was going to have my own page on 6mmBR on your dime.
Stephen Perry
Sorry I am your chosen target today. As I said I was commenting on chasing the lands. I have no interest in the 6 BR and would not suggest any loads for it. You are way too testy for what you read into my Post.
What ever happened to the PPC page you were setting me up for? I saved the prototype you sent me if you forgot. I would like to see the page on the Shooters Forum where the action is. I made the mistake of telling my guys I was going to have my own page on 6mmBR on your dime.
Stephen Perry
Back to the subect,
I can`t figure out how to do that quote thing yet but moderator asked about the freebore being out +.170 past where I can seat a bullet and thats where it`s at. I don`t use a comparator or a stoney point thing but just two rods to see where lands are...works good.
From what I understand it sounds like I need to find a different reamer to get my bullets seated better, should I ask my `smith to find me a new one? The thing is though is after I`m done with this bbl I might go with a 1:9 for some 95 vld`s so what freebore should I go with?
If I started at 2.315 at the lands that would mean I had about a .100+ to start so would it be smart to ask for a .080 next time? I`m still a little uneducated how the reamer= chamber I want thing works...
One thing I have`nt talk about yet is the neck dia. of my cases are .275, my next one will be .272 but do you think the wider neck would have cause the damage?
I can`t figure out how to do that quote thing yet but moderator asked about the freebore being out +.170 past where I can seat a bullet and thats where it`s at. I don`t use a comparator or a stoney point thing but just two rods to see where lands are...works good.
From what I understand it sounds like I need to find a different reamer to get my bullets seated better, should I ask my `smith to find me a new one? The thing is though is after I`m done with this bbl I might go with a 1:9 for some 95 vld`s so what freebore should I go with?
If I started at 2.315 at the lands that would mean I had about a .100+ to start so would it be smart to ask for a .080 next time? I`m still a little uneducated how the reamer= chamber I want thing works...
One thing I have`nt talk about yet is the neck dia. of my cases are .275, my next one will be .272 but do you think the wider neck would have cause the damage?
Patch,
A .275 neck diameter chamber is way big! Most no turn guys go with a .271 or .272. As I said before a long throat reamer would never be my first choice. If you plan on going with a new 9 twist and the 95VLD's I would not go any more than a .060 free bore. A .050. or even a .040 would be much better suited for the 95VLD because of it's super short bearing surface. I'd personally recommend an eight twist with an .060 free bore that way you can play with everything from 68's to 105's. Don't forget to spec a reamer for a 6BR Norma,NOT REMINGTON) so you can use Lapua brass. I'd also recommend a "no trim to length" so you can get all the benefits of that nice long Lapua neck. Brass is 1.560 OAL.
Al Matson,Alinwa) who lurks here and posts from time to time has forgotten more about the 6BR than most of us will ever know. Perhaps if he reads this he'll jump in. Al's pearls of wisdom are definitely worth listening to.
Danny Reever
A .275 neck diameter chamber is way big! Most no turn guys go with a .271 or .272. As I said before a long throat reamer would never be my first choice. If you plan on going with a new 9 twist and the 95VLD's I would not go any more than a .060 free bore. A .050. or even a .040 would be much better suited for the 95VLD because of it's super short bearing surface. I'd personally recommend an eight twist with an .060 free bore that way you can play with everything from 68's to 105's. Don't forget to spec a reamer for a 6BR Norma,NOT REMINGTON) so you can use Lapua brass. I'd also recommend a "no trim to length" so you can get all the benefits of that nice long Lapua neck. Brass is 1.560 OAL.
Al Matson,Alinwa) who lurks here and posts from time to time has forgotten more about the 6BR than most of us will ever know. Perhaps if he reads this he'll jump in. Al's pearls of wisdom are definitely worth listening to.
Danny Reever
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