Chamber Reaming.
- Thread starter CentrePunch
- Start date
SamL:
I am using Rustlic 255R cut 5:1 that is five parts distilled water, and 1 part Rustlic 255R. The manufacture recomened 10:1, 20:1 and even 30:1. My coolant is about the consistency of Milk, with a slight chlorine smell. I cut at 35-50 psi and flush at 75-100 psi.
I was a skeptic at first. I mixed my Rustlic 255R at 1:1 and it had a consistency of GoJo and would clean your hands very well. I may could have used it a 3:1 but I settled on 5:1.
I have cut more than 100 .243, 6mmBR, 6.5 X .284 .308, chanmers without having to sharpen my reamers. PT&G, MANSON, CLYMER and JGS will all tell you high presure/high speed saves on tool wear.
Rustystud
I am using Rustlic 255R cut 5:1 that is five parts distilled water, and 1 part Rustlic 255R. The manufacture recomened 10:1, 20:1 and even 30:1. My coolant is about the consistency of Milk, with a slight chlorine smell. I cut at 35-50 psi and flush at 75-100 psi.
I was a skeptic at first. I mixed my Rustlic 255R at 1:1 and it had a consistency of GoJo and would clean your hands very well. I may could have used it a 3:1 but I settled on 5:1.
I have cut more than 100 .243, 6mmBR, 6.5 X .284 .308, chanmers without having to sharpen my reamers. PT&G, MANSON, CLYMER and JGS will all tell you high presure/high speed saves on tool wear.
Rustystud
Rusty:
?????? High pressure, high speed chamber reaming….I am curious….Did you make your own coolant system or purchase it? And what RPM is considered high speed?….the reason I ask is, I do my chambers the old way, 2 or 3 a year and usually my own….the good old pipe threading cutting oil…I did 3 30BR chambers last year and my reamer showed a lot of wear….Machine, South Bend 10 Tool room Lathe ).In the head stock w/ outboard spider…I have tried different ways to push the reamer but end up with a dead center method w/ lathe dog, it just plain works the best for me….One more ? could this coolant system be adapted to cutting dies? Always looking for a better way…Thanks…Rick
?????? High pressure, high speed chamber reaming….I am curious….Did you make your own coolant system or purchase it? And what RPM is considered high speed?….the reason I ask is, I do my chambers the old way, 2 or 3 a year and usually my own….the good old pipe threading cutting oil…I did 3 30BR chambers last year and my reamer showed a lot of wear….Machine, South Bend 10 Tool room Lathe ).In the head stock w/ outboard spider…I have tried different ways to push the reamer but end up with a dead center method w/ lathe dog, it just plain works the best for me….One more ? could this coolant system be adapted to cutting dies? Always looking for a better way…Thanks…Rick
I consider any rpms over 70 to be high speed. But I normally start at 175rpms. I work both in the headstock with an outboard spider and with a steady rest on barrels under 26 inches.
Attached are some photos of my flush system. The first photo is a Duff-Norton Rotary Coupler, the second picture is the Flush system, note it is working and the presure gauge needle is up around 50psi, the last picture is the catch pan/returnline and splash deflector I made from a pop bottle bottom.
Rustystud
Attached are some photos of my flush system. The first photo is a Duff-Norton Rotary Coupler, the second picture is the Flush system, note it is working and the presure gauge needle is up around 50psi, the last picture is the catch pan/returnline and splash deflector I made from a pop bottle bottom.
Rustystud
Attachments
Rick:
I use a Sherwood 1/2hp bronze 3/8 gearhead pump, 4.4gpm free flow and 3.0gpm at 100psi.
MSC Order number 09390774
When you shut the ball valve quickly the presure can spike to over 150psi. A hose letting go, coming off or developing a leak can make a mess quickly. Another reason for using water soluable chlorinated coolant/lubricant.
Before, I insert my pilot into the bore, with the lathe not turning. I have my pump running with the ball valve to the return to the tank open fully. This circulates my coolant and stirs it up I let it run maybe 5 minutes or more before I do any flushing. I then begin opening the ball valve to the flush side. I let it run for about 5 minutes at about 15-20 psi just flushing out the pipes and filter. The output is cought in the catch pan and runs by gravity back to the tank in a .750 hose.
When I am ready to begin reaming I insert the pilot into the bore about .250. I with the return ball valve open I begin opening the ball valve on the flush side until fully open. A flow of coolant begins to flow out around the pilot. I then engage the lathe. I then begin closing the return ball valve. My presure increases until I reach the level I want. I begin reaming dependent on reamer size from 105 rpm to 175rpm with HSS reamers. With carbide reamers I run 600rpms. I back out on smaller cases more frequently and flush. I also flush more frequently the last .300. I back out .100 and flush with 100-125psi. My catch pan has a 3/4 hose and a couple earth magnets in the bottom. I could probably use a larger return line. as sometimes I have to stop reaming and allow the catch pan to drain down. I never have the lathe running with a reamer in the barrel that I don't have coolant flowing.
Hope this answered your questions.
Rustysud
I use a Sherwood 1/2hp bronze 3/8 gearhead pump, 4.4gpm free flow and 3.0gpm at 100psi.
MSC Order number 09390774
When you shut the ball valve quickly the presure can spike to over 150psi. A hose letting go, coming off or developing a leak can make a mess quickly. Another reason for using water soluable chlorinated coolant/lubricant.
Before, I insert my pilot into the bore, with the lathe not turning. I have my pump running with the ball valve to the return to the tank open fully. This circulates my coolant and stirs it up I let it run maybe 5 minutes or more before I do any flushing. I then begin opening the ball valve to the flush side. I let it run for about 5 minutes at about 15-20 psi just flushing out the pipes and filter. The output is cought in the catch pan and runs by gravity back to the tank in a .750 hose.
When I am ready to begin reaming I insert the pilot into the bore about .250. I with the return ball valve open I begin opening the ball valve on the flush side until fully open. A flow of coolant begins to flow out around the pilot. I then engage the lathe. I then begin closing the return ball valve. My presure increases until I reach the level I want. I begin reaming dependent on reamer size from 105 rpm to 175rpm with HSS reamers. With carbide reamers I run 600rpms. I back out on smaller cases more frequently and flush. I also flush more frequently the last .300. I back out .100 and flush with 100-125psi. My catch pan has a 3/4 hose and a couple earth magnets in the bottom. I could probably use a larger return line. as sometimes I have to stop reaming and allow the catch pan to drain down. I never have the lathe running with a reamer in the barrel that I don't have coolant flowing.
Hope this answered your questions.
Rustysud
Preacher:
I was a skeptic too, Greg Tannel and Dave Manson opened my eyes to the flush system and high speed a number of years ago. I do 85% of my barrels in the headstock with a copper wire between the jaws and the barrel. The other end I use a piece of copper pipe split slid over the barrel. This gives the barrel less surface area in the jaws keeping the barrel from flexing. I learned this from Butch Lambert and Mike Bryant,both very fine gunsmiths). For 30 plus years I never exceeded 50 rpms when chambering. I use to have to get my reamers sharpened about every 15-20 chambers. I now can go 100 plus chambers between regrinds. My chips are in the form of shavings so thin and light they float on the coolant. You don't hear this very often but Cut rifling barrels are solfter and slightly easier to chamber because they are not cold work hardened like button barrels. This is a double edged sword. The hardness makes the barrels last longer according to some. Much of the chatter one hears about is the harden spots created by the button going down the barrel. By using high speed one can take lighter cuts and cover the same ammount of teritory. High presure flush systems keep both the tool and work cool and clean of chips. The fluid,Rustic 255R) I use is an "Extreme Presure coolant/Lubricant.
Preacher, I was resistent because I was taught different. Sometimes I regret I have such a hard head. I have heard old time riflesmiths say chambers can't be reamed at high speed. That is true is you set them up tlike they were done years ago. Short barrels done today need to have a steady rest with a center bearing and inboard spider. I would venture to say 75% or more of the top U.S. shooters barrels today are cut with a highspeed flush system. Carbide is made to cut at high speed and does a dam good job at high speed and does a lousy job at slow speed. The newer tooling is made for speed in a flood coolant enviroment. Just ask the makers.
Rustystud
I was a skeptic too, Greg Tannel and Dave Manson opened my eyes to the flush system and high speed a number of years ago. I do 85% of my barrels in the headstock with a copper wire between the jaws and the barrel. The other end I use a piece of copper pipe split slid over the barrel. This gives the barrel less surface area in the jaws keeping the barrel from flexing. I learned this from Butch Lambert and Mike Bryant,both very fine gunsmiths). For 30 plus years I never exceeded 50 rpms when chambering. I use to have to get my reamers sharpened about every 15-20 chambers. I now can go 100 plus chambers between regrinds. My chips are in the form of shavings so thin and light they float on the coolant. You don't hear this very often but Cut rifling barrels are solfter and slightly easier to chamber because they are not cold work hardened like button barrels. This is a double edged sword. The hardness makes the barrels last longer according to some. Much of the chatter one hears about is the harden spots created by the button going down the barrel. By using high speed one can take lighter cuts and cover the same ammount of teritory. High presure flush systems keep both the tool and work cool and clean of chips. The fluid,Rustic 255R) I use is an "Extreme Presure coolant/Lubricant.
Preacher, I was resistent because I was taught different. Sometimes I regret I have such a hard head. I have heard old time riflesmiths say chambers can't be reamed at high speed. That is true is you set them up tlike they were done years ago. Short barrels done today need to have a steady rest with a center bearing and inboard spider. I would venture to say 75% or more of the top U.S. shooters barrels today are cut with a highspeed flush system. Carbide is made to cut at high speed and does a dam good job at high speed and does a lousy job at slow speed. The newer tooling is made for speed in a flood coolant enviroment. Just ask the makers.
Rustystud
Preacher:
I apoligize for not answering your question. You can Buy Duff-Norton Rotary Couplers from Duff-Norton directly or from MSC or about any other Industrial supply house. Not meaning any harm to Greg Tannel but why would anybody buy a nylon/plastic rotary coupler when you can buy a stainless steel model with greasable bearings for about $20.00 more. I expect the Duff-Norton rotary coupler I bought will be here long after I am gone. It is built like a brick out house.
I made a couple very elaborate couplers, but have found plain old automotive heater hose and a couple of hose clamps works just fine. The hose I use is rated for about 150 psi. I think you can see this in pictire number 1.
RA
I did about 300 new barrels and close to 100 setbacks last year. I have one customer who brings me 25 barrels at a time. Last year he had me rebarrel 4 different rifles each with 10 barrels all in the same caliber. He wants them all chambered exactly the same. He shoots them all and keeps the top 3. He sells the rest to his friends and competitors.
Rustystud
I apoligize for not answering your question. You can Buy Duff-Norton Rotary Couplers from Duff-Norton directly or from MSC or about any other Industrial supply house. Not meaning any harm to Greg Tannel but why would anybody buy a nylon/plastic rotary coupler when you can buy a stainless steel model with greasable bearings for about $20.00 more. I expect the Duff-Norton rotary coupler I bought will be here long after I am gone. It is built like a brick out house.
I made a couple very elaborate couplers, but have found plain old automotive heater hose and a couple of hose clamps works just fine. The hose I use is rated for about 150 psi. I think you can see this in pictire number 1.
RA
I did about 300 new barrels and close to 100 setbacks last year. I have one customer who brings me 25 barrels at a time. Last year he had me rebarrel 4 different rifles each with 10 barrels all in the same caliber. He wants them all chambered exactly the same. He shoots them all and keeps the top 3. He sells the rest to his friends and competitors.
Rustystud
Rusty:
I have been in Greg Tannel’s site some time back, looking at the action blue printing jig, just didn’t pay attention to anything else….I was looking for materials to make one myself but haven’t found any yet…by the time I would pay for the cutting charge and the small amount of tubing or bar stock new, I might as well purchase the jig….This was one project that mentor Ray would have me do, and mentor John would have me do thread chasing….I know enough to be dangerous …LOL !…..I did like the copper wire for chucking the barrel in the headstock, I hadn’t thought of that one….I know one machinist that uses pennies, one that made elaborate brass jaws and John uses aluminum sleeves….I made caps that fit the jaws from aluminum that have a surface of about 1/4 inch…The button verses cut rifled barrels for hardness hit home for me….Last year I chambered my first Krieger, it cut so fast I didn’t know how to deal with it and ended up screwing up the first chamber,finish/ rings )….The Mclennen, Shilen, and Lilja all cut about the same but the Krieger was completely different…I laid it to freezing, changing the molecular structure, and my inexperience….I have the most problem with finish, that is why I am looking at the high pressure system….I understand the importance of coolant / feeds/ speeds/ heat, I worked in ID / OD grinding to the sixth decimal point for 30 years, but never cut a chip…. It has been 8 years since I purchased my lathe and 4 years since my first chamber.. Look forward to learning more…Thanks again…Rick
I have been in Greg Tannel’s site some time back, looking at the action blue printing jig, just didn’t pay attention to anything else….I was looking for materials to make one myself but haven’t found any yet…by the time I would pay for the cutting charge and the small amount of tubing or bar stock new, I might as well purchase the jig….This was one project that mentor Ray would have me do, and mentor John would have me do thread chasing….I know enough to be dangerous …LOL !…..I did like the copper wire for chucking the barrel in the headstock, I hadn’t thought of that one….I know one machinist that uses pennies, one that made elaborate brass jaws and John uses aluminum sleeves….I made caps that fit the jaws from aluminum that have a surface of about 1/4 inch…The button verses cut rifled barrels for hardness hit home for me….Last year I chambered my first Krieger, it cut so fast I didn’t know how to deal with it and ended up screwing up the first chamber,finish/ rings )….The Mclennen, Shilen, and Lilja all cut about the same but the Krieger was completely different…I laid it to freezing, changing the molecular structure, and my inexperience….I have the most problem with finish, that is why I am looking at the high pressure system….I understand the importance of coolant / feeds/ speeds/ heat, I worked in ID / OD grinding to the sixth decimal point for 30 years, but never cut a chip…. It has been 8 years since I purchased my lathe and 4 years since my first chamber.. Look forward to learning more…Thanks again…Rick
No Disrespect to Greg Tannel he is a fine gunsmith and machinist. I looked at his aluminum jig and even thought about buying one. Dave Kiff at PT&G Sells them. I chose to follow the route taken by Mike Bryant,Bryants Custom Guns). I made my jig out of steel and lined it with alluminum. The liner is drilled and tapped in the middle and has a screw keeping it in place inside the steel tube. I use 1/2" screws with locking nuts for my adjusters. There are 4 cuts on each end of the aluminum liner so the pedals can flex. The action is completely encased by aluminum. I have several different sizes for different actions and bolts.
Rustystud
Rustystud
Lazylads:
I appreciate the offer but I have some 3" tubing that I was going to use but when I went back to Ray he told me that it wouldn’t be quite big enough and I should get 3 1/2" to cover all actions…For Remington it would probably be fine but I want it for my Winchesters…Thanks Again…Rick
Rustystud:
This jig sounds intriguing... No bolts touch the action, just the pedals of aluminum secure it when indicated. ….I went into Bryants site before posting this, the jig looks short for what I presume is a Rem. action…I would guess that the last picture on his site is the jig that would be for a Winchester, wouldn’t it be difficult to sleeve this action or am I wrong? Come Monday I am swapping my Rem. .308 Varmint for a new SA Win. Swift Varmint…This is going to be my F-Class action and will be my first action truing job if I can come up with a jig…If not I will probably have my friend Ray do it for me…Gosh! I want to do it myself though, it would be one more feather in my cap! Thanks for the advise…Rick
PS…I do not have a steady rest for my South Bend, I didn’t get one with it, just a follow rest…
I appreciate the offer but I have some 3" tubing that I was going to use but when I went back to Ray he told me that it wouldn’t be quite big enough and I should get 3 1/2" to cover all actions…For Remington it would probably be fine but I want it for my Winchesters…Thanks Again…Rick
Rustystud:
This jig sounds intriguing... No bolts touch the action, just the pedals of aluminum secure it when indicated. ….I went into Bryants site before posting this, the jig looks short for what I presume is a Rem. action…I would guess that the last picture on his site is the jig that would be for a Winchester, wouldn’t it be difficult to sleeve this action or am I wrong? Come Monday I am swapping my Rem. .308 Varmint for a new SA Win. Swift Varmint…This is going to be my F-Class action and will be my first action truing job if I can come up with a jig…If not I will probably have my friend Ray do it for me…Gosh! I want to do it myself though, it would be one more feather in my cap! Thanks for the advise…Rick
PS…I do not have a steady rest for my South Bend, I didn’t get one with it, just a follow rest…
I had know idea that Greg's jig was made of aluminum. No way aluminum would be suitable IMO, just too flexible. I made my jig out of steel and have different aluminum bushings I use to sleeve the action. It's really pretty easy to make, just a bit time consuming. I think I have less than $40 in mine, including the bolts, and sleeves. You will need thick walls on the jig, so as not to have it flex when tightening the bolts. Mine is just short of 1/2" thick, with an inside diameter of 3".
Folks, I see truning factory actions as a dying industry. One can buy and aftermarket CNCd action for about the same cost as truing up a piece of crap factory action. Stiller, Stole, Lawton, Borden, and the list goes on all make better actions from the get go. Some of the factories have gone to investment cast to curb cost. The cast actions just are not as strong as actions cut from one solid piece of steel or stainless.
I have always been a Remington 700 man until three years ago. When a customer brought in a Savage. Savages perform because they use the KISS princple. Now Aftermarket parts for Savages are on the increase. Savages are hear to stay and the factory is even opening its eyes to the market needs.
Remington is living on its coattails, and going to watch Ron Colburn take Savage right on buy with the market share.
There will always be a market for rebarreling as they wear out. But actions that are taken care of will generally last a lifetime.
Rustystud
I have always been a Remington 700 man until three years ago. When a customer brought in a Savage. Savages perform because they use the KISS princple. Now Aftermarket parts for Savages are on the increase. Savages are hear to stay and the factory is even opening its eyes to the market needs.
Remington is living on its coattails, and going to watch Ron Colburn take Savage right on buy with the market share.
There will always be a market for rebarreling as they wear out. But actions that are taken care of will generally last a lifetime.
Rustystud
Rustystud said:
I agree with almost all of your post. The customs are better for sure but trued factory actions will never go away. Reason is that everyone has to start somewhere, and most don't wan't to pony up for a custom on their first build,unless they have deep pockets). They will take one of their existing rifles and invest another $150-$200 in truing. The other part I don't agree with is the notion that investment cast actions aren't up to par. Farley actions were,and maybe still are) cast by the same folks that cast Ruger actions and last time I checked, you still have a long wait for a Farley.
Tightneck:
I don't know a gunsmith that will remove the old threads, recut the bolt race, bush or replace the bolt, recut new trued threads, lapp the bolt, and re face the action for $100-$150 dollars. Much less cut, turn, thread, and chamber a new barrels and headspace it on the trued action. You are looking at $500-$1000 OF Services. When one can buy a new cusommaction that many of these services are already done.
Rustystud
I don't know a gunsmith that will remove the old threads, recut the bolt race, bush or replace the bolt, recut new trued threads, lapp the bolt, and re face the action for $100-$150 dollars. Much less cut, turn, thread, and chamber a new barrels and headspace it on the trued action. You are looking at $500-$1000 OF Services. When one can buy a new cusommaction that many of these services are already done.
Rustystud
Rustystud said:
Where in my post does it say truing for $100-$150? The going rate is as I posted, give or take a few bucks, check the websites. I also don't think the average guy can be talked into reaming the boltway and bushing the bolt for an extra couple hundred for a hunting rifle. I do have two bolts coming from Dave Kiff in the next few days though, and honestly can't see why anyone would bush a bolt when you can sell the Remmy bolt and buy the Kiff for just a few bucks more. Believe me, I love the custom actions and have a few of my own, but I'm not talking about shooters like me. I'm talking about the guy that is out to do a custom for the first time, and already has a donor rifle that he paid for 20 years ago. He want's to build a deer rifle and ain't about to drop $700-$800 on a Predator or an Alpine. Not to mention that it's more money in the gunsmith's pocket, so he will be pushing blueprinting as well.
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