CCI Primer question

[Peterson1]

What are the differences between Small rifle CCI 400, 450 Magnum, and BR4?
Real concern-question
are all these equally safe in 6ppc?

Thanks in advance for your response!
CLP

 

[RGRobinett]

Safe and excellent. RG

 

[Straightshooter1]

What are the differences between Small rifle CCI 400, 450 Magnum, and BR4?
Real concern-question
are all these equally safe in 6ppc?

Thanks in advance for your response!
CLP

BR4's and 400's are essentially the same, basically a difference in quality control where BR4 can provide slightly more consistency that competitive shooters might get. 450's are hotter and flame can reach further into a case's powder for better ignition in high capacity cartridges. 450's could be a good choice in place of 400's when shooting in very cold conditions.

 

[deadidarren]

About the most important difference is the 450 have a thicker Cup

 

[BobbyJ]

What are the differences between Small rifle CCI 400, 450 Magnum, and BR4?
Real concern-question
are all these equally safe in 6ppc?

Thanks in advance for your response!
CLP

No not equally safe in a AR.

400s are thinner which means they will pierce easier than the 450s or the CCI 41s or Remington 7 1/2. Also they can't handle high pressure as well.

The 400s can be used without issues but do not have the same margin of safety in a AR as do the ones with thicker cups. If you keep the pressure lower the 400s are safe depends on how hot you load them. If you go with Rem 7 1/2 you will have a greater margin of safty vs the 400s.

You will be fine until you start piercing primers, and torching firing pins and bolt faces. Remember, they don’t make THICKER primers just for no reason.

some info for you on primers and pressure.

Primers And Pressure

 

[JMayo]

Most i know use br4 in 6ppc. More accurate ...
I've not experienced an obvious difference, i follow those before me.
But i have shot many 450"s in 6ppc.

 

[RGRobinett]

No not equally safe in a AR.

400s are thinner which means they will pierce easier than the 450s or the CCI 41s or Remington 7 1/2. Also they can't handle high pressure as well.

The 400s can be used without issues but do not have the same margin of safety in a AR as do the ones with thicker cups. If you keep the pressure lower the 400s are safe depends on how hot you load them. If you go with Rem 7 1/2 you will have a greater margin of safty vs the 400s.

You will be fine until you start piercing primers, and torching firing pins and bolt faces. Remember, they don’t make THICKER primers just for no reason.

some info for you on primers and pressure.

Primers And Pressure

PO: " . . . are all these equally safe in 6ppc?"
How/why did the rat-gun enter the fray?!!? RG

 

[BobbyJ]

PO: " . . . are all these equally safe in 6ppc?"
How/why did the rat-gun enter the fray?!!? RG

AR platform is not just 223, they make it in other calibers 450BM, 204 ruger and people even make them with 6ppc.
It applies Bolt or AR and no they are not equally safe in 6ppc if you loads are hotter. Using in a bolt does not make the primer thicker or stronger. The bottom line is the pressure in AR or Bolt and 400s are thinner than 450s 7 1/2 etc. Read the link I provided for more information.

 

[6BRA]

And the cup height is different by .002

 

[K22]

I don't dispute the issues with 400 primers cup thickness.

However, and this is just a question, why does the Speer Loading Manual (13th Edition) list the 400 primers for maximum loads in the 223 Rem? The only listing for the 450 primers is for ball powders with this cartridge. Just curious.

PS: I haven't used CCI primers in about 20 years but may have to resume using them since Federal 205M primers seem to have disappeared from earth!

 

[Murray Brook]

However, and this is just a question, why does the Speer Loading Manual (13th Edition) list the 400 primers for maximum loads in the 223 Rem?

Certainly agree. Hard to figure out why companies do this. Something like Nosler saying that a 1/12 twist is required for their 53 gr Varmageddon yet they test with a 1/14 and give the most accurate load.

 

[BobbyJ]

I don't dispute the issues with 400 primers cup thickness.

However, and this is just a question, why does the Speer Loading Manual (13th Edition) list the 400 primers for maximum loads in the 223 Rem? The only listing for the 450 primers is for ball powders with this cartridge. Just curious.

PS: I haven't used CCI primers in about 20 years but may have to resume using them since Federal 205M primers seem to have disappeared from earth!

Probably a mistake or oversight. My new hornady load book has some mistakes in it. I look at like 3-4 load sources + real world input from people using the same loads. I prefer to learn from others mistakes if possible.

Do a search of 400s and you will find people that have pierced primers. I have a bunch of 400s and wont use them for 223 ARs if I do I will download them. 6ppc can easily get pressures of 60,000+. Probably 50,000psi and under 400s are fine. 55,000+ PSI is probably were a certain percentage start to have issues.

Here is just one of many quotes on 400s:

"Run pressures up to SAAMI limits for 5.56 in an AR-15, and I promise you will have primer problems if you use standard-thickness small rifle primers - including any CCI 400.

After several members of the team experienced the same problem (this was about the same time we were all transitioning from M1A to AR15 for competition) the team all switched to MAGNUM primers, and the problem went away completely, with all loads and all guns used by the team.

This is CCI 400 with 23.5 N-135 with 80 SMK @ 2.400” OAL
Brass was new Remington brass."

 

[K22]

Probably a mistake or oversight. My new hornady load book has some mistakes in it. I look at like 3-4 load sources + real world input from people using the same loads. I prefer to learn from others mistakes if possible.

Do a search of 400s and you will find people that have pierced primers. I have a bunch of 400s and wont use them for 223 ARs if I do I will download them. 6ppc can easily get pressures of 60,000+. Probably 50,000psi and under 400s are fine. 55,000+ PSI is probably were a certain percentage start to have issues.

Here is just one of many quotes on 400s:

"Run pressures up to SAAMI limits for 5.56 in an AR-15, and I promise you will have primer problems if you use standard-thickness small rifle primers - including any CCI 400.

After several members of the team experienced the same problem (this was about the same time we were all transitioning from M1A to AR15 for competition) the team all switched to MAGNUM primers, and the problem went away completely, with all loads and all guns used by the team.

This is CCI 400 with 23.5 N-135 with 80 SMK @ 2.400” OAL
Brass was new Remington brass."
View attachment 1371577

Thanks - interesting. Question - does this also apply to bolt rifles loaded with 50 to 60 grain bullets?

 

[BobbyJ]

Thanks - interesting. Question - does this also apply to bolt rifles loaded with 50 to 60 grain bullets?

Probably have less bolt thrust with lighter bullets. But those lighter bullets often use more powder too. I ran the above example through Quickload.

80gr SMK 23.5gr n135 COL 2.4" = 63,000 PSI
60gr SHP 23.5 gr N135 COL 2.26 = 43,000 PSI
60gr SHP 26 gr N135 COL 2.26 = 62,500 PSI

Just changing to a lighter bullet but keeping the same load is going to lower the PSI. So 60gr would be safer but most book loads for lighter bullets use more powder. So 400s with some care can be made safer but will never be as safe as 450s, 7 1/2s etc.

 

[K22]

Probably have less bolt thrust with lighter bullets. But those lighter bullets often use more powder too. I ran the above example through Quickload.

80gr SMK 23.5gr n135 COL 2.4" = 63,000 PSI
60gr SHP 23.5 gr N135 COL 2.26 = 43,000 PSI
60gr SHP 26 gr N135 COL 2.26 = 62,500 PSI

Just changing to a lighter bullet but keeping the same load is going to lower the PSI. So 60gr would be safer but most book loads for lighter bullets use more powder. So 400s with some care can be made safer but will never be as safe as 450s, 7 1/2s etc.

Very useful info - thanks.

Maybe I'm missing something here probably because I'm a simple man but why in the hell doesn't CCI just make one primer cup thickness for both standard and magnum primers and eliminate all the confusion and potential safety issues?

PS: It's a rhetorical question There are so many insane things going on in this world these days why should I expect primers to be excluded from all the insanity.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

CCI 400 is safe for everything except maybe AR type rifles. The reason is that the firing pin in the AR is free floating in the bolt carrier, which could result in a slamfire. I have fired thousands of rounds in AR rifles and this has happened to me twice. The cause was a dirty bolt carrier causing the pin to become stuck. Cleaning fixed the problem. The armed forces decided to have a stiffer primer as in a combat situation there can be limited ability to clean it.

 

[BobbyJ]

Very useful info - thanks.

Maybe I'm missing something here probably because I'm a simple man but why in the hell doesn't CCI just make one primer cup thickness for both standard and magnum primers and eliminate all the confusion and potential safety issues?

PS: It's a rhetorical question There are so many insane things going on in this world these days why should I expect primers to be excluded from all the insanity.

Im just guessing here as I don't know the full history of the 400s or similar Remington 61/2 but some firing pins on some guns might have issues setting off a thicker primer. And I think both are a little hotter than 400s in ignition.

Also With lighter loads the pressure might not seal the primer in the primer pocket and gas can leak around the primer causing breach face erosion. Perhaps a softer primer would help here.

I do not know this to be true for sure though. Someone on this forum might know more about why you would want a thinner small rifle primer over the 450s.

 

[CaptainMal]

400's in my Dasher and BRA's are a failure. Proud primers and the occasional pierced one result. Must use 450 or Federal. They work fine in my 223 bolt. Don't want to try them in my AR's.

 

[Iowa Fox]

Anyone know what the cup thickness is on the 041's

 

[Lone Hunter]

Anyone know what the cup thickness is on the 041's

From everything I have seen it is the same thickness as CCI 450 and BR4. .025 thickness