Cast bullets: 9mm

[DRNewcomb]

This is not exactly a precision shooting question but maybe someone can give me some pointers. In the past, the only bullets I ever cast were .45 cal round balls for my Old Army. I have a simple 400 W Palmer electric pot (not bottom pour), dipper, aluminum Lee molds and about 50 lbs of old wheel weights and salvaged bullets. While the balls for the Old Army should be pure lead, it is actually very forgiving regarding the alloy used. So, I've never made much of a science of casting. I use candle wax for fluxing and couldn't tell you exactly what alloy is in the pot but it's mostly wheel weights. I do have an old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

I decided I needed to do more with that ~50 lbs of lead, so I bought a mold for 125 gn 9 mm RN pistol bullets and some liquid bullet lube. So far, I've cast about 100. The results were, well, unimpressive. I set aside about 20% as irregulars. They have very obvious layering lines where the alloy solidified during the pour. I didn't intend to buy a bullet sizing die, just slosh them around in the liquid lube and let dry.

When I read the Cast Bullet Handbook, it goes into great detail about alloys and techniques that I have no intention of using (e.g. high temp casting, gas checks, paper wrapping, etc). What I'm looking for is just some basic, rule of thumb techniques that will allow me to cast bullets for practice, without a huge investment. Store-bought copper-clad practice bullets are only about 8¢ each. I decided in 9 mm only because I have many hundreds of .38 & .45 practice bullets on hand.

 

[Texan]

I'm just getting into casting myself, but I'd say you need to increase your casting temperature, increase tin content of your alloy, or both.

 

[DRNewcomb]

I'm just getting into casting myself, but I'd say you need to increase your casting temperature, increase tin content of your alloy, or both.

I think maybe you're right. I might invest in something that will tell me the temperature of the melt. I have a multimeter with a thermocouple but I doubt it would hold up in the lead pot.

 

[martin22250]

I've casted a lot with lee molds, pre heat the mold before you start by putting a corner in the pot intill the lead won't solidify immediately and smoke the mold like the instructions say, I use pure wheel weights and have good success.
Dustin

 

[Webster]

RE: DR NEWCOMB

I used to cast a lot of bullets. I used steel molds. If you have wrinkles either the lead is not hot enough or the mold isn't heated up or both. If the lead starts to solidify as soon as it hits the mold surfaces you get wrinkles or not filled out. Aluminum will pull the heat out of the lead quicker than steel. Even with steel molds you have to throw away the first 2-3 castings to get the mold up to temp. If you think the mold is getting too hot based on how long it takes the sprue to solidify let it cool down a little. Wheel weights many years ago had 1 or 2 % antimony and no tin. Adding a little tin adds fluidity and helps fill out the mold better. Expensive but adding some 50/50 lead/tin solder may help. You could try it for a small batch. I wouldn't think it's necessary. I cast 150 gr 7mm bullets with grease groves, the small groves were well defined.

I have a copy of "Cast Bullets" Copy righted 1979. Published by the NRA. 144 pages. I will send it to you for free if you reimburse for postage. PM me.

 

[Webster]

I think maybe you're right. I might invest in something that will tell me the temperature of the melt. I have a multimeter with a thermocouple but I doubt it would hold up in the lead pot.

You don't need to measure temp. If you mold is warmed up and you get wrinkles just keep turning the temp up in small increments till it works. When I was about 15 I cast sinkers in the woods on a wood fire.

 

[nicholst55]

First thing to do is slug the bore of your pistol and mike the slug (with a micrometer, NOT $20 Chinese dial calipers). Many 9mm pistol bores measure .358", rather than the nominal .355-.356" that they're supposed to be. Shooting too-small bullets down them is a recipe for leading and poor accuracy! Next, read this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Obtaining success with cast bullets does not involve voodoo or virgin sacrifices, but you really do need to go about it correctly!

 

[mikeinct]

Some types of rifling "polygonal" I believe, found in 9mm Glock pistols may not like the cast lead slug fired thru it...Check with manufacturer that the gun itself will like to shoot cast bullet reloads...Mike in Ct

 

[DirtySteve]

Ok this post is right up my alley. I have a Magma Master Caster manual casting machine and a Magma/Star bullet sizer. First what "lead" are you using. I know you mention salvaged bullets but I am guessing you re also using wheel weights. Not all wheel weights are created equal. The clip on are best and the tape style pretty much suck but can still be used mixed with other lead. The tape style has too much Zinc content and needs to be thinned out a little. You need to make sure the alloy is at proper temperature and the mod is very warm.(so the alloy won't start to solidify while pouring.) Because you can not be sure of the wheel weight composition. I would suggest adding some tin and antimony. Both of these will help the alloy flow better and harden up the alloy. Rotometals has a great selection of high Antimony and tin content alloys available. https://www.rotometals.com/bullet-casting-alloys/ Get one of these alloys and your bullets should improve as well as accuracy. I have shot a ton, literally, of 9 mm bullets through my 1911's as well as a couple Glock and S&W M&P's. Through my 1911 I can get excellent 50 yard groups. I size my 9mm bullets to .356". I had a gun that liked .357".

Velocity is also important with cast bullets. A bullet going to fast seems to strip off lead in the lands and lead like hell. Needless to say that is bad for accuracy. Too slow also can yield bad results. Load up 5 of different charge weights and check them for accuracy and give a quick brushing of the barrel between groups.

I don't like the Lee pour on lube but I have used it in the past. Just really messy stuff.

 

[mac86951]

I think maybe you're right. I might invest in something that will tell me the temperature of the melt. I have a multimeter with a thermocouple but I doubt it would hold up in the lead pot.

It'll work just fine; typical type K thermocouple is way hotter than lead.

+1 to the previous comments relisted here...

Did you slug your barrel; are you sizing your cast bullets? Those two and a post cast weight check are good ideas.

 

[DRNewcomb]

It'll work just fine; typical type K thermocouple is way hotter than lead.

The problem is that the tip of the thermocouple is only about 1/2" long. I could put it between the pot and the stand but the depth of the melt varies by more than 1/2" during a session.

Did you slug your barrel; are you sizing your cast bullets? Those two and a post cast weight check are good ideas.

1) Not yet and 2) if I don't intend to buy a sizing die, gas checks or a lot of other specialized gear. I'm doing this to save money by making use of equipment I already own plus about 50# of wheel weights I've collected over the years. If I have to buy a bunch of paraphernalia I might as well give the lead to a buddy and buy factory-made bullets.

 

[mac86951]

I was going to give some lengthy reply, but honestly each caster has its own temperament. Finding a pace to work that keeps molds at right temp is key to good consistent bullets.the thermocouple can be dipped in (just the junction) to record temps. Small mass heats fast; or get a high temp probe from Amazon or elsewhere. I believe most DMMs use a K type. I use an old school lead thermometer and shoot for about 700. This temp suits my pace.

Alternative: buy cast bullets and test for accuracy. Measure for hardness and diameter. Cast with similar style and alloy.

-Mac

 

[DRNewcomb]

I ran into an old shootin' buddy at Sam's Club today. First thing he asked was if I'd been "burning any powder?", which segued into bullet casting. He has a lot of experience with the subject and equipment, offered to help me clean up my wheel weights, get the alloy straightened out, etc. So, I think I'll have a handle on the subject pretty soon.

 

[Webster]

I live in the Cleveland, Ohio area. About twenty years ago I found a local company that sold lead alloys. I guess their customers were casting bearings. I told them I wanted a linotype alloy. They blended the Pb, Sn & antimony in proper proportions and cast it into small ingots while I waited. Very low price. I think the guy liked the idea I was making bullets. If you live near a large city you may have a lead alloy supplier co.

 

[banjoguy]

It takes me a good 50 or so drops to get a mold up to temp and cleaned up. There may be residual oil film in it that will continue to cause wrinkles even after the temps are correct.

If they aren't coming out crisp looking once the wrinkles clear up, add a smidge of tin. Tin lowers the surface tension and allows the mold to fill out.

I mix clip-on WW and stick-on WW 50/50 for pistol uses.

 

[msinc]

I cast a lot of bullets and I shoot them in my 9mm's. I don't do anything special. I use some Lee molds and I have a Lee bottom pour production pot. You are not really saying what, if any problems you are having...maybe you are just trying to learn. If you are having trouble getting good looking bullets you will need to tell us exactly why they are bad, that is to say what's happening or what's wrong with them. Maybe I missed it??
If accuracy is the problem there are some tricks. One thing that you might have to do, if you slug the bore and find that your bullets "as cast" are actually smaller or the same size as the bore, is to lap the mold. Basically cast a bullet, attach it to a rod you can chuck in a drill and coat it with some lapping media. Then, spin it in the mold to kind of smooth out and open it up a little. The mold must produce bullets that are larger than your bore so you can size them to all be the same.
Secondly, you hear a lot about hard lead, hard cast bullets, hard alloy, yadda yadda yadda.....hard this, hard that....that's not really what you want. Just the opposite. The harder the lead you cast the more fouling you will have. You really want softer lead. You want bullets in the 11 to 13 BH range. But, that has more to do with leading up the bore than initial accuracy. You could be casting in the 14-16 range and still shoot okay. Most of the serious casters call pure dead soft lead the "holy grail" of bullet casting material. You will know if it is really soft when you let it cool off in the pot and the surface turns a pretty blue. Typically, you wont see soft lead with wheel weights, but with fired dug out bullets you very well might.
I have used liquid Alox quite a bit and found zero problems with it. Most people apply way too much. You do not want to turn the bullets "gold" in color with it, that is way more than you need. You should not smell it and get a puff of smoke when you fire the gun. If you are seeing that you are using way too much. I have never used gas checks in a 9mm. That would require a special mold. Ordinary candle wax is as good a flux as any...it will ignite and smoke up the house though. Good clean fluxed out lead is essential to barrel life but not necessary for initial accuracy. I like to render my lead into ingots for a good cleaning the first time and still flux it again when I actually cast the bullets. Post any questions you have.

Edit: almost forgot...one important thing is not only to not use polygonal rifling {it wont kill you or blow up the gun but it does lead up really bad really quick} but also to verify that you have a slower twist. At least slow enough to not lead up. I shoot lead bullets in my Browning Hi-Power but to do so I had to get a slower twist barrel from Bar-Sto. If I remember right the factory barrel is like 1-in-9 and the Bar-Sto barrel is 1-in-14 or so.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

no offense, but casting quality bullets is going to take some experimenting, READ: time and effort, to perfect the process.

what msinc posted is a simple means to get you to the 90% range. The rest is playing with temperature.

 

[msinc]

no offense, but casting quality bullets is going to take some experimenting, READ: time and effort, to perfect the process.

what msinc posted is a simple means to get you to the 90% range. The rest is playing with temperature.

Yeah, I mean, there is no sense in lapping the mold or worrying about the bore size until you are getting good perfect looking bullets to start with. Temperature plays a big part in good bullets...I can turn the pot down and get what might look like usable bullets to the untrained eye, but they might be .002" smaller than those cast properly in the same mold.
The good thing about casting is that you can cast 200 bullets that are no good but not loose the lead it took to do so...just throw it back in the pot.

 

[Baddog0302]

First, IF you are dead set on trying your hand as casting 9MM's I suggest you go to the "cast boolits" forum site and join. A lot of useful info available if you will read and turn up your BS meter as there are a few like on many forums that like to read their own thoughts.
Second, on the CB forum, you will see a sub forum titled bullet lubes. On there you will see the topic Tumble lube made easy. Basically it tells how to use the Lee Alox, and mix with Johnson's paste wax and mineral spirits to make a thinner lube that won't glob up and remain sticky.
third, since you are shooting an automatic, you have easy access to your barrel. for serious cast bullet shooting and just preventing leading in your barrel slug the throat or leade in your barrel. Thats the section between the case mouth and the rifling.
For your project you can shoot your bullets "as cast" meaning don't size, just lube.
All of this, OR google cast bullets, HyTec coated bullets, or plated bullets. Don't forget to factor in the S&H. Midway has a sale on plated bullets and shows you the S&H charge before you check out. One Co. SNS bullets advertises using flat rate shipping.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I have a friend who got out of casting this spring. I am selling his tin and bar solder.

PM me if you are interested in buying either, at below market (roto-metal) pricing, please PM me.
Or any of you here that cast.

Rich