Case sizing for factory Rem 308 chamber?

[Bill Carson]

Hello, I'm loading for my 700 VS in 308 Win. for long range shooting. I'm using Lapua brass, currently neck sizing only with Lee collet die. I'd like to use a process that is the same for each loading, i.e, no bumping shoulders when it gets time, or full length every few firings.
My chamber is typical, loose and long. I'd like to full length resize but just move the brass enough to keep reliable feeding.
I'm considering the Redding full length bushing die. That will give me the ability to control neck tension, which I need badly due to my thick brass. I know I can adjust the die up to size the body less, but in that case, how does my shoulder get bumped back properly?

 

[thefitter]

I would use the Lee collet die with a Redding body die. Set it once and you have good control of what you want when you want it. I get extra mandrels from Lee for cheap if I want more or less neck tension.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/620746/redding-body-die-308-winchester

 

[CatShooter]

Hello, I'm loading for my 700 VS in 308 Win. for long range shooting. I'm using Lapua brass, currently neck sizing only with Lee collet die. I'd like to use a process that is the same for each loading, i.e, no bumping shoulders when it gets time, or full length every few firings.
My chamber is typical, loose and long. I'd like to full length resize but just move the brass enough to keep reliable feeding.
I'm considering the Redding full length bushing die. That will give me the ability to control neck tension, which I need badly due to my thick brass. I know I can adjust the die up to size the body less, but in that case, how does my shoulder get bumped back properly?

You might want to wait before worrying about FL sizing and bumping your shoulder.

I once reloaded a 308 case at the range, trying to get it to fail to chamber easily - each time it was necksized - I quite at #28, there being no resistance whatsoever when closing the bolt.

I loaded a batch of three hundred 22-250 cases over 45 times each, only FL sizing three times (when I rebarreled the rifle a total of five times).

A FL die can cause more damage than good.

 

[thefitter]

Hello, I'm loading for my 700 VS in 308 Win. for long range shooting. I'm using Lapua brass, currently neck sizing only with Lee collet die. I'd like to use a process that is the same for each loading, i.e, no bumping shoulders when it gets time, or full length every few firings.
My chamber is typical, loose and long. I'd like to full length resize but just move the brass enough to keep reliable feeding.
I'm considering the Redding full length bushing die. That will give me the ability to control neck tension, which I need badly due to my thick brass. I know I can adjust the die up to size the body less, but in that case, how does my shoulder get bumped back properly?

You might want to wait before worrying about FL sizing and bumping your shoulder.

I once reloaded a 308 case at the range, trying to get it to fail to chamber easily - each time it was necksized - I quite at #28, there being no resistance whatsoever when closing the bolt.

I loaded a batch of three hundred 22-250 cases over 45 times each, only FL sizing three times (when I rebarreled the rifle a total of five times).

A FL die can cause more damage than good.

Excellent point and a good reason to keep your neck sizing die separate from your body sizing die.

 

[Toolbreaker]

Bill, I have a 700 SPS in 7mm-08 that I've been reloading for awhile now. I've been using the Lee collet die as you, just sizing the necks only. So far, I've shot out one full batch of WW brass and am working on the second, only using a full length die initially on the new brass to straighten out the dinged necks. I built a comparator to register off of the datum line of the shoulder to keep an eye on case stretch, and to date, after the initial one or two firings, it settles in & hasn't stretched anymore. The bolt is still closing very easily on the fired cases.

Granted, I'm not running super hot loads, so that may contribute to it. In your case, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The collet die works great. It needed a little massaging out of the box to operate properly, but beyond that, has been my "go-to" for sizing.

 

[jo191145]

FWIW Bill

You do not set the FL die higher to size the body less. You set the FL die higher/lower to get the correct shoulder bump. All done by measurements.
I for one believe the Redding S series FL dies would be exactly what your looking for. Personally I ditch the expander ball even on factory guns. No lube ever required in the neck of the brass is more important than run out concerns for me. Variations in lube left in the neck from brass to brass and day to day make guns shoot ugly. Theres nothing more consistent than zero and that's how much lube I like in the necks.

If I must use an expander on a die I use Imperial dry graphite and leave it there. Quite consistent also.

 

[Bill Carson]

Thanks for the advice guys! I had always had good results in the past with the collet dies using Win brass. I don't have any experience with bushing dies. The reason I had asked was the amount of force that I am having to apply to make the brass fully form to the mandrel.
I assume the reason for the greater force is because of the distance I'm moving the brass due to my rather loose neck and the thickness of the Lapua brass. I'm having to really put all my weight into the press handle and then mic each piece just to make sure I got the collet fully closed. My fear is that as I tire I won't stay consistent.
Until I started this project I had always been happy to load on the mild side. Oddly, this rifle doesn't seem to have an upper node with the components I'm using. It just shoots better the hotter I go. I just had to draw a line and quit within margin of safety. I have zero knowledge of how this brass would act at that level.
In the past I have always shot my brass several times, then relegate it to hunting use where I eventually lose enough casings that I just introduce another batch of brass into the cycle.

 

[Toolbreaker]

I think you may have partially answered your own question regarding the thicker brass used by Lapua brass. Also, is the neck-sizing resistance you're getting increasing with the number of firings? If so, I would attribute that to the necks work hardening. Just for grins, I'd try having a small batch of brass annealed to see if this puts the sizing resistance back where it belongs. Just for comparison, I'm showing roughly .007" expansion on a fired case vs. a sized & seated case (.0035"/side) out of mine. Add another .002"ish to the O.D. of the neck for just the sizing alone (before seating a bullet), and that adds up to a lot of brass working over a few reloading's.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from full-length sizing, just saying that it isn't necessary in my case, and maybe not yours as well. I'll agree with CatShooter wholeheartedly, that FL sizing can cause more headaches than it solves in a case like this, at least in my opinion.

 

[CatShooter]

I'll agree with CatShooter wholeheartedly, that FL sizing can cause more headaches than it solves in a case like this, at least in my opinion.

Same thing can be said about necking only. Plus the continues pressure risks inherited from chamber contact.

What does THAT mean??

 

[CatShooter]

What does THAT mean??

In simple terms, that means any time you have resistance to the bolt on open or closer, which coincides with necking only, sooner then later in more scenario's then not.

That still does not make sense. But I can assure you that all of my cases make contact with the chamber - the sides, the front, and the rear... to do otherwise would require the to float in space, a feat which I have yet to perfect.

And I assure you that your cases do the same.

 

[Bill Carson]

Toolbreaker, I'm sizing after the first firing currently. I sure hope work hardening doesn't increase the required force much, I'm afraid I'm going to break my press off the bench now.
My original intent was to use the thicker neck of the Lapua to take up some of the slack in the generous neck dimensions of my chamber.

 

[BoydAllen]

Bill,
You mentioned that you are having to put a lot of effort on your press. What operation are you talking about? If you are using the collet die, you may be under the impression that you need to apply excessive force to get neck tension, when either reducing the mandrel size, or buying a smaller one from Lee (relatively inexpensive) is the proper solution. What press are you using? If you are using the Lee method for setting up your collet die, approximately how many pounds of force are you putting on the press handle at the top of the ram stroke?
Boyd

 

[thefitter]

Bill,
You mentioned that you are having to put a lot of effort on your press. What operation are you talking about? If you are using the collet die, you may be under the impression that you need to apply excessive force to get neck tension, when either reducing the mandrel size, or buying a smaller one from Lee (relatively inexpensive) is the proper solution. What press are you using? If you are using the Lee method for setting up your collet die, approximately how many pounds of force are you putting on the press handle at the top of the ram stroke?
Boyd

Also if you apply too much pressure you'll blow the top off your LCD. They are made that way on purpose.

 

[Bill Carson]

I'm using a rockchucker press with the dies adjusted to the Lee method. What started me using so much force was the fact that unless I do, the cases mic out at inconsistent sizes and are not concentric. My assumption is this is caused by not getting the collet to squeeze enough. I started at the recommended 25 lbs, moved to 45 lbs, (measured by hanging weights on the press handle, and then working my way up to putting all my upper body weight on the handle. I've got a couple spare mandrels, but the stock one gets me where I wanted to start with for neck tension (.002). I tried moving the die 1/2 turn farther in, but get the same results.
I can get the neck size I want and it's true across the diameter at all points around the case when I'm done, but it sure takes alot of force to get there.

 

[BoydAllen]

Way way way overkill. If you want to get there with a whole lot less effort, you might try the nonstandard approach that is used by several users including myself. I put a case in the shell holder, and bring the die down gradually till I get a VERY SLIGHT toggle at the top of the stroke. With this method, the ram goes to full extension, and the linkage to its stop. I have spent a lot of time sizing cases with a collet die, and before I learned better used way too much toggle. Use your smaller mandrels if you need more neck tension, and define the quality of your results on the target. Sometimes we can get carried away, and let the tail wag the dog.

 

[Bill Carson]

My next step is to try that. Setting the die to toggle over should at least get me out of the grunt/measure/retry method. I know it won't give consistent neck tension with inconsistant brass thickness, but my brass doesn't have that problem.
You are also right in that I need to just shoot it- I just now have all my brass fire formed, so I'll be doing plenty of that shortly.

 

[243winxb]

Buy this in 308

And control sizing using this- http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=12897/GunTechdetail/Gauging_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL

 

[amlevin]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Forster Shoulder Bump/Neck size Bushing die yet.

Since I started using one there's no more "should I F/L size after this firing" question. I fire new brass as is, trim and neck turn, and from there on it's only the SB/NS Bushing die. Rounds chamber with ease, having the shoulder bumped .0015" +/- .0005.

My Collet die, body die, and F/L dies are almost never used anymore.

 

[hogan]

Redding FL S die is a very versatile tool. Redding advises they work as a Body Die with the decap assy removed.


On a different note, have you used Wilson Case Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic to determine the chamber dynamics at work. Cutting to the chase, might want to consider having chamber set forward to minimum oal; something like .0005 over go-gauge. Longish oal chamber is not your friend. Short oal chamber means brass hardly stretches. Worth measuring virgin brass also and maybe setting up your chamber to be under go-gauge if virgin brass measures significantly under.

As to determining when to case size, since you are recreational shooter and using bolt gun, why resize at all until bolt closes with some effort? Not like you are shooting competition, hunting dangerous game, or risking your life in combat. You want to use your chamber as your gage. Size only until bolt closes with minimal effort. Always want a tight fit so brass isn't overworked with every firing. Not like you are shooting max loads, is it?

Best aid to precision is short-oal chamber. Get a tool to measure your brass before and after firing. See for yourself what virgin brass registers and then what fired brass reads. Better case life if the brass never has to stretch.

Bushing sizer lets you match neck sizing to your chamber. Best accuracy aid for you might be to use thickest neck brass can find. You won't know until you measure virgin and fired dimensions. Only bushing die allows you to tailor the neck size operation to match brass thickness. Might not need to turn necks once you get this dialed-in.

 

[jo191145]

Long Range shooters tend to load hot. Not much different than most short range BR shooters. A PROPERLY adjusted Redding S series FL die will not cause problems it will solve them. Unless its a custom chamber/die setup the only sizing die I now buy for any factory rifle is the S series FL die.

Hey Catshooter, glad to see you back.-Joe