Case separation.

[Grimstod]

humor is a wonderful thing. They say it takes more brain activity to be sarcastic. But it Gods day so I will give it a rest.

I confess I have no 303 experience, need to get one, one of these days. I have 30-30 and 54r and have never seen case head separation even with FL sizing 10 times. Here is an example.

Keep in mind FL sizing with either die in these two cases results in .012 of shoulder bump and head spacing on the bolt face is less then .004, I have another gun that I just put together last winter and it has less then .002 of head spacing clearance for the bolt but I have not fired brass enough to measure a difference in the amount of stretch in the web of the cases for comparison. I will have to report back on that next year.
I did some good image searching to but every instance I found the real problem was improper head spacing.
This one for example was the first firing and he clearly has a head spacing issue.

 

[BoydAllen]

Nice pictures....It looks to me like you are setting your dies incorrectly, so that they touch the shell holder when they should not. Shoulder bump is entirely within your control. After the first firing of a new case, if it chambers easily, and the case has a lot of taper, you set your die so that it replicates the position of the shoulder of a fired case, and repeat that, checking and resetting for each firing, until you notice that the reading has maxed out, as measured by some sort of gauge. Then, if you feel some tightness on bolt close, you can set your die to bump the shoulder back .001 to .002. I like my Stoney Point (now sold by Hornady) "headspace gauge" which is really an misnomer, since it is really a shoulder position comparitor. At the root of all of this are the die manufacturers' instructions that blithely instruct users to adjust their FL dies to touch the shell holder. This results in separation after only a few reloadings. The differences that you see in your 30-30 and 54R rifles are likely due to the die's closer match to your chambers' shoulder locations. Again, bump is entirely within your control by how you set the die.

 

[Grimstod]

Good advice. Thanks.

 

[bigedp51]

I wonder if Lapua makes .303 British cases. :

Below a new unfired Remington .303 British case on the left and a fired case on the right.

Below the same new case in a Wilson case gauge, the case is not resting on the shoulder yet and the case rim is stopping the case from dropping further.

Below a fired case in the Wilson case gauge and "WHY" you can not use a full length die and neck size only. (yes the dreaded benchrest method) (and someone put the rat turd in a guitar case)

And why you should always count to 6 million before opening the bolt on a hangfire. As you can see the front of the case was sucked into a black hole but the bullet never reached the speed of light. (or even saw the light) Bullet stuck in the barrel humor.

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that your gauge is the problem. An unfired rimmed case that has a shoulder that is blown forward a long ways when first fired is pretty much in the same situation as every factory belted magnum in existence. Because the back of the case is secured by the rim, the case blows forward to the chamber. After that first firing, if a proper gauge (one that allows the precise measurement of the head to shoulder dimension) is used to set the Fl die, stretch will be minimized. As I posted above, the die would be set to produce the same head to shoulder dimension as the fired case. If the fired case shown in the lower picture was sized in a die that was adjusted so that the back of the case suck up above the gauge the same amount as it is in the picture, you would have made a good start on your process. Setting the die so that the case is flush would be a mistake, and cause problems down the road. It would be like blindly following die manufacturers' instructions to adjust the die to touch the shell holder.

 

[Bindi2]

humor is a wonderful thing. They say it takes more brain activity to be sarcastic. But it Gods day so I will give it a rest.

I confess I have no 303 experience, need to get one, one of these days. I have 30-30 and 54r and have never seen case head separation even with FL sizing 10 times. Here is an example.

Keep in mind FL sizing with either die in these two cases results in .012 of shoulder bump and head spacing on the bolt face is less then .004, I have another gun that I just put together last winter and it has less then .002 of head spacing clearance for the bolt but I have not fired brass enough to measure a difference in the amount of stretch in the web of the cases for comparison. I will have to report back on that next year.
I did some good image searching to but every instance I found the real problem was improper head spacing.
This one for example was the first firing and he clearly has a head spacing issue.

I will disagree about this rifle having a headspace problem. My experience would say a generous sized chamber with a minimum sized case and a fair chance that the case was minimum quality brass. I have had this occur to me on first firing with a well known American brass maker. My work rifle is well inside headspace specs it just has a generous chamber. My brass selection is now better and I only use a LEE neck sizing collet die. I have been reloading 303 since the early 70s using about 100rds a week. I have a short list of brass makers I use and a much longer list I wont use. In other words don't blame the rifle for crap brass or lack of knowledge on reloading for the British military 303 rifles they are different very different. If you really want to tear your hair out try reloading for the following 303/22 x 3 sizes S, M, L, 303/243, 303/25. 303/270 using poor quality brass even with tight chambers not AI.

 

[Grimstod]

In the last photo it was later confirmed that there was to much head spacing in the rifle. I would not have used he word "clearly" unless I already knew that.

On inside note it seams like 303 chambers are really way off. Well not to self, when I get one be prepared for the worst.

 

[Bindi2]

In the last photo it was later confirmed that there was to much head spacing in the rifle. I would not have used he word "clearly" unless I already knew that.

On inside note it seams like 303 chambers are really way off. Well not to self, when I get one be prepared for the worst.

The 303 chambers are not way off they are military chambers in a battle rifle that has to work every time or the soldier dies. One reason why they survived two world wars plus some can anybody else claim that NO. Headspace is over .067 (bolt closes) and under .074 (bolt wont close) that is the correct reading nothing else just between those two. ONLY USE PROPER BRIT GUAGES not SAMMI OR ANY OTHER USA GUAGE.
Reloading was not in the Specs get over it or learn to deal with it. Military brass was made to handle the over sized chambers plus more. Civvie ammo is not never has been unless it comes from a factory that made mil spec ammo. When a popular American rifle maker made new 303 rifles recently they got the chamber and barrel specs wrong . They used the wrong drawings what hope do reloaders have when the great American firearms industry get the basics wrong. You Americans need to backup when it comes to the 303 BRIT you only know what can be inscribed on a pin point so don't show your ignorance. For your info The Bisley long range records were held by the 303 long after it was no longer used so much for the USA 30cal being better, 30 cal was certainly along way behind in development before NATO.
If I could obtain Mk7 projectiles today for the 303 the 308 would not be in my gun safe for range shooting out to 1000yds +.

 

[37Lincoln1]

Well Bindi, as far as "two world wars and then some" the 1903 Springfield would beg to differ.

But that's just we Americans. . .

The M1903 Springfield, formally the United States Rifle, Caliber .30-06, Model 1903, is an American clip-loaded, 5-round magazine fed, bolt-action service rifle used primarily during the first half of the 20th century.

It was officially adopted as a United States military bolt-action rifle on June 19, 1903, and saw service in World War I. It was officially replaced as the standard infantry rifle by the faster-firing semi-automatic 8 round M1 Garand starting in 1937. However, the M1903 Springfield remained in service as a standard issue infantry rifle during World War II, since the U.S. entered the war without sufficient M1 rifles to arm all troops. It also remained in service as a sniper rifle during World War II, the Korean War, and even in the early stages of the Vietnam War.

wikipedia

Or the Mosin-Nagant:

It may be said with justice if one considers sniper rifles as part of a national army's weapons, that the Mosin Nagant is the longest continuously serving firearm in history, at more than 120 years and counting.

wikipedia

 

[bigedp51]

I think that your gauge is the problem. An unfired rimmed case that has a shoulder that is blown forward a long ways when first fired is pretty much in the same situation as every factory belted magnum in existence. Because the back of the case is secured by the rim, the case blows forward to the chamber. After that first firing, if a proper gauge (one that allows the precise measurement of the head to shoulder dimension) is used to set the Fl die, stretch will be minimized. As I posted above, the die would be set to produce the same head to shoulder dimension as the fired case. If the fired case shown in the lower picture was sized in a die that was adjusted so that the back of the case suck up above the gauge the same amount as it is in the picture, you would have made a good start on your process. Setting the die so that the case is flush would be a mistake, and cause problems down the road. It would be like blindly following die manufacturers' instructions to adjust the die to touch the shell holder.

BoydAllen

There is nothing wrong with the Wilson gauge, military chambers are longer and fatter than there civilian counterparts. For us Americans the real problem is they do not make Lake City .303 military brass here with thicker rims and thicker cases. (a bit of humor) This is why I said you can't use a SAAMI full length resizing die because it is too small in diameter and "MUCH" shorter than "ACTUAL" British military standards.

Below is a South African "military" cartridge in the Wilson case gauge resting on its shoulder.

And "NEVER" tell an Australian there is something wrong with their Enfield rifle because the American company Pratt and Whitney supplied the manufacturing machinery to produce the Enfield rifle at their Australian Lithgow plant. British and Commonwealth Military headspace is minimum .064 and maximum .074 and emergency wartime headspace was .084 and why I know a 'little bit" about warped banana shaped cases.

Below is a Winchester case with the thinnest rims and thinnest brass of any .303 British case made. As a test I full length resized this case two times with a RCBS full length resizing die. This case has a rim thickness of .058 and a undersized base diameter, the military cases have a rim thickness of approximately .063, and thicker brass in the base. This case if stood on its base would be leaning because the base of the case is no longer 90 degrees to the axis of the bore.

Bottom line, if Lake City or Lapua made "military" grade cases and if the die manufactures made British military resizing dies "NO ONE" would ever say the Enfield rifle had a headspace problem.
(except the benchrest shooters) Bazinga

Bindi2 very few Americans know about the Kokoda Track campaign and the conditions you Ozmanics fought under or ever watched the movie.

Or understand outback Rugby rules.

G'day mate

 

[bigedp51]

Well Bindi, as far as "two world wars and then some" the 1903 Springfield would beg to differ.

But that's just we Americans. . .

The M1903 Springfield, formally the United States Rifle, Caliber .30-06, Model 1903, is an American clip-loaded, 5-round magazine fed, bolt-action service rifle used primarily during the first half of the 20th century.

It was officially adopted as a United States military bolt-action rifle on June 19, 1903, and saw service in World War I. It was officially replaced as the standard infantry rifle by the faster-firing semi-automatic 8 round M1 Garand starting in 1937. However, the M1903 Springfield remained in service as a standard issue infantry rifle during World War II, since the U.S. entered the war without sufficient M1 rifles to arm all troops. It also remained in service as a sniper rifle during World War II, the Korean War, and even in the early stages of the Vietnam War.

wikipedia

37Lincoln1

Over 75% of American troops in WWI carried the M-1917 Enfield rifle "AND" it was a British design and built like a tank and very accurate. And it is the very same rifle that Sgt York used to shoot round holes in square heads.

And I'm running a special this week on Paul Hogan Magnum Roo lights if you want to buy one.

I will sell you the Magnum Roo light for only 47 payments of $19.95 (plus shipping)

P.S. Bindi2, sorry about the koala bear, I'm still bent out of shape about the Austraia II taking the Americas Cup from us.

 

[BoydAllen]

What I should have written, was that setting your die so that the shoulder is bumped excessively is the problem, and that using the gauge to set the die so that the case head falls in the range of what it indicates as properly sized, is the problem. If you use the gauge as a comparator, instead of an absolute standard, it will work, as long as a fired case sticks up above the gauge, and even if it does not, it can be used with a depth mic. ...but I prefer a caliper attachment. Whether it is setting the die so that it touches the shell holder, or so that the head of the case is in the position within the gauge that Wilson recommends, when the chamber dimensions dictate something else, the die is set incorrectly for best case life. I see this all the time. Back in the day when no one that I knew had any kind of gauge, fellows who shot belted magnums used to speculate as to why they lost cases, chalking it up to "magnum pressures". If they had set their dies properly, instead of by the manufacturers' instructions, the problem would have never come up. When you say that when your shoulders are bumped back .012 when FL sized, what you are really saying is that you have not realized that your die may be, and in fact should be set so that they are not.

Back in the day, when I first realized that I would need a number of Wilson gauges to set dies for the various calibers that I owned, I added the cost of those gauges up, and found that I could buy a tool from Stoney Point that was easier to use, and covered all of the calibers that I had, or would ever have, for less money.

In most all cases, when loading for a specific rifle, returning fired cases to new brass dimensions, especially with regard to head to shoulder dimension, is undesirable. The die should be set so that the fit is correct for that specific chamber.

 

[Bindi2]

There were more M17s in WWI than 1903s which were both out numbered by the brit rifles. The HT stayed in service until after Vietnam. The L42 which is the 308 nato conversion of the No4 Mk1T was later. The 30 06 is a good cartridge but had a shorter military life on the world scene than the 303. Pratt and Whitney made the machines for Lithgow, who made the machines for Orange (42 on) not Pratt and Whitney.
New Guinea is but one of the many places that the Aussies or ANZACS fought with little or no recognition. The Indian WW2 army was bigger than the Brits and other Commonwealth armies combined but history is lacking in this regard plus battle deeds.

Ed.... AUSTRALIA has a L in it and we won the F C world cup in Raton in 2013. Big GRIN chug a lug.

 

[bigedp51]

BoydAllen

You can't use a full length die at all on the .303, the diameter of the chamber is much bigger than a SAAMI die. The shoulder location is just one problem because the case is expanding outward to meet the chamber walls and to meet the bolt face. The one thing I'm sorry I never did was having custom full length dies made.

Early in 1914 the existing Enfield chambers were reamed larger in diameter and the chambers shoulder reamed longer for two reasons.

1. The Enfield rifles would not chamber a cartridge under the dirty muddy conditions of trench warfare. (the mud of Flanders fields)
2. There was also a scandal over the sloppily made .303 ammunition and who was awarded contracts to make the cartridges and corruption within the Government. This poorly made ammunition led to the death of the finely made straight pull Canadian Ross rifle and being issued British made ammunition.

The dimensional argument over the dies and chamber dimentions started 237 years ago when we had the argument with King George. We dumped British tea in Boston harbor and the British retaliated by taking our game of Base Ball, modifying it and calling it Cricket. We responded by modifying the game of Ruby and making our players wear shoulder pads and protective head gear. Then finally in 1926 when the SAAMI came into being and long after the Enfield rifle was designed and to get even "again" we changed the chamber and reloading die standards.

And the most important thing to remember about the Britiah and Commonwealth Nations is that we are separated by a common language.

 

[bigedp51]

Ed.... AUSTRALIA has a L in it and we won the F C world cup in Raton in 2013. Big GRIN chug a lug.

Sorry Bindy2 my two dyslexic typing fingers cause problems some times.

And "yes" I know about your other big win. And I worked off my anger about it.

P.S. What is really funny is that it only took Mel Gibson one hour and forty-seven minutes to defeat General Cornwallis.

Our war would have been over sooner, "but" Mel left his Enfield rifle at home.

 

[Bindi2]

Good to see you using the right tools in your anger management programme that poor bloody Koala must have a lot of clones or a very sore butt.

 

[bigedp51]

Bindi2

It all started when a few of your Australian "mates" told me I had relatives living in Tasmania.

For you Americans who don't understand Australian humor, Tasmania was the first of the British penal colonies in Australia and the rumor is there was a lot of inbreeding because of their few numbers. I won't tell you my real last name but I Googled the Tasmanian phone book and sure enough there were thousands with my same last name.

"BUT" the big difference is my British ancestors paid for their way to the American colonies and sadly some of my ancestors were given a free ride to Tasmania.

It had something to do with borrowing a horse, and my ancestors were faster runners and got to the dock first just before the ship sailed, and the slower ones were sent to Tasmania.

The Australians told me that the two brother below were my Tasmanian cousins. :-[