case fill % or burn %
- Thread starter acssa
- Start date
bigedp51
Forgive the figures if they are wrong I'm working off memory, but the the case should be filled between 86% to 94% for its best loading density meaning the amount of powder in the case. These are ball park figures because each rifle will have its pet load for best accuracy.
If you shorten the rifles barrel the percent of powder burned will be reduced but the cartridges load density remains the same.
Bottom line, you will find your best accuracy somewhere between "case fill % or burn %" when you work up your load
"BUT" below I chose a faster burning and the percent burned because H110 will leave burn marks on silhouette targets with a five inch .44 magnum at seven yards. ;D
(and its more fun to shoot all day long)
Seriously, you have to find out what your rifle likes and your question has been looking for an answer for a very long time, and long before Quickload.
And Quickload or the Powley Pocket Computer can't predict how your barrel will vibrate.
And when deer hunting if you place the feed piles less than five feet apart you don't have to worry about the range estimations or the barrels node points. :
If you shorten the rifles barrel the percent of powder burned will be reduced but the cartridges load density remains the same.
Bottom line, you will find your best accuracy somewhere between "case fill % or burn %" when you work up your load
"BUT" below I chose a faster burning and the percent burned because H110 will leave burn marks on silhouette targets with a five inch .44 magnum at seven yards. ;D
(and its more fun to shoot all day long)
Seriously, you have to find out what your rifle likes and your question has been looking for an answer for a very long time, and long before Quickload.
And Quickload or the Powley Pocket Computer can't predict how your barrel will vibrate.
And when deer hunting if you place the feed piles less than five feet apart you don't have to worry about the range estimations or the barrels node points. :
bigedp51
Lapua40X said:
Quickload will give you 95% and all burnt % calculations in inches, see green and purple dotted lines in Quickload chart above. Quickload like the Powley computer will help you select powders. Neither one of these ever made me a better shot and now that I have cataracts starting to form I'm waiting for braille scopes and Lapua to make laser guided bullets.
QL will give you the % of fill of powder depending on the bullet and seating depth. It also give the % of the powder burn in barrel Inches. 3 rd it will show how many of inches of barrel it takes to get 95% of speed.acssa said:
My self I like 101 to 103 % fill I want 98 plus% burned in the barrel 3 rd I want a powder that gives me the most inches of barrel to get 95% of speed. Larry
savagedasher said:
But that isn't how powder burns. All the powder that will burn has been consumed at peak pressure or within the first inch or so of the bore, why pressure drops off dramatically after peak chamber pressure. Barrel length only allows the resultant gasses of the burn to continue accelerating over a longer period of time provided they're at a sufficient pressure to overcome friction.
In simple terms its like dropping two 10 pound round rocks, one from ten feet the other from twenty feet. The rock dropped from twenty feet will hit the ground at a higher velocity, gravity has a longer time to accelerate it. The rocks weigh the same and gravity is the same, the only difference is the dwell time.
Rocky explains it much better here (Read all three pages) > http://www.shootersforum.com/handloading-procedures-practices/48081-reloading-short-barrel.html
Bill
BillPa said:
bigedp51
BillPa said:
Your link isn't working at this time, BUT I find your statement hard to believe if what you said was correct only one power would be made for all rifles and hand guns.
Now go back up and look at the Quickload chart I posted and my humor about one of the slowest burning pistol powders vs a faster powder in a shorter barrel and burn marks on the target.
Below shows less than 95% of H335 being burned in a 16 inch AR15 carbine barrel, and max pressure was at the 3 inch mark.
Below are the port pressures for the different type AR15 rifles.
And if you would have seen a factory loaded .35 Remington fired in a 16 inch contender, the Contender recoiling violently and pointing skyward, the massive fireball in daylight you would rethink the percent powder burned. (and also have a full grasp of rocket thrust)
You need to get a Powley pocket computer because it gives the same results as Quickload and then see nothing has changed in over 50 years of "computers" electric or human powered.
The next time you go to the range stand closer to the guy shooting next to you and parallel to the end of his barrel.
And some of you thought I was joking about slow burning powder and burn marks on the silhouette targets at 7 yards.
bigedp51
mikecr said:
Thats a very strange comment to make about combustion and possibly a typo, our powders have an oxidizing agent in them in order to burn.
And Commander Lovell said on the Apollo 13 mission in the vacuum of space, "Houston, we have a problem" because the liquid oxygen tank exploded and they no longer had an "oxidizer" for the fuel to burn.
So what exactly did you mean "Powder itself doesn't need air to burn", and remember early Nitrocellulose powder was made from wood pulp. Meaning our reloaded cartridges contain a "match", some "wood" and a "oxidizer" for the "powder to burn".
Sorry but I grew up listening to the "The Doors" sing "Light my Fire" and playing with matches. :
I'm suggesting is that our powder doesn't need extra air to burn. So it's possible that it's not powder flashing off at the muzzle. That the powder really is burned as much as it will before then.
I think some of the powder burns beyond the chamber with something like a 30-06. But some of this would just add unburned powder to bullet mass(increasing recoil), and would likely pepper a target at ~2yds. I don't picture it catching on fire because it's free of the muzzle,, and if it did it wouldn't contribute to the pressure in muzzle blast.
It does make sense to me that you wouldn't use faster powder for a shorter barrel -just to get more powder burned. You would use the best powder regardless length, but considering all else(like fill, MV, pressure, muzzle pressure, RESULTS). So if you had a 6PPC in 26-28", you'd still use N133, and the same amount of it used at ~22". Otherwise, that 6PPC would lose every bit of it's character. It would fall apart completely.
I think some of the powder burns beyond the chamber with something like a 30-06. But some of this would just add unburned powder to bullet mass(increasing recoil), and would likely pepper a target at ~2yds. I don't picture it catching on fire because it's free of the muzzle,, and if it did it wouldn't contribute to the pressure in muzzle blast.
It does make sense to me that you wouldn't use faster powder for a shorter barrel -just to get more powder burned. You would use the best powder regardless length, but considering all else(like fill, MV, pressure, muzzle pressure, RESULTS). So if you had a 6PPC in 26-28", you'd still use N133, and the same amount of it used at ~22". Otherwise, that 6PPC would lose every bit of it's character. It would fall apart completely.
bigedp51
mikecr, the topic is "case fill % or burn %" and Quickload will give you both.
Muzzle flash: What is it and what causes it?
http://legallyarmedamerica.com/2014/01/10/muzzle-flash-what-is-it-and-what-causes-it/
mikecr, the definition of reality check.
1. Reality Check - an occasion on which one is reminded of the nature of things in the real world.
2. An assessment to determine if one's circumstances or expectations conform to reality.
Below is actual reality and a Smith & Wesson .44 magnum 629 Backpacker 2 5/8" barrel and a max load of H110 powder.
And now I remember why the hair on my knuckles is so short.
Muzzle Flash
When a gun fires, only about 30% of the chemical energy released from the propellant is converted into the useful kinetic energy of actually moving the projectile down the barrel. The remaining energy is primarily contained in the propellant gas-particle mixture that escapes from the muzzle of the gun in the few milliseconds before and after shot ejection. A significant portion of this remaining energy is dissipated in the bright "muzzle flash" seen when the gun fires.
This flash consists of at least the following five components:
1) Muzzle Glow
2) Primary Flash
3) Intermediate Flash
4) Secondary Flash
5) Sparks
1) Muzzle Glow is usually a reddish white glow or tongue of flame at the muzzle that appears just prior to shot ejection and persists after shot ejection until the chamber pressure drops significantly.
The initial glow is usually the result of hot, highly compressed gases (unburned propellants) leaking past the projectile driving band and is brightest in a worn gun.
These gasses are hot enough to emit radiation in the visible light band. A "Cold Gun" with its lubricated barrel generally shows less muzzle glow than does a "Hot Gun" with its expanded barrel.
2) Primary Flash occurs after the projectile has exited the muzzle and is caused by those propellant gases exiting the muzzle behind the projectile. These are hot enough to emit large amounts of visible radiation but cool rapidly as they expand away from the muzzle.
3) Intermediate Flash consists of a reddish disc, slightly dished towards the gun, which appears about three inches (7.5 cm) from the muzzle of a small-caliber weapon and about 20-25 calibers from the muzzle for larger caliber weapons. Intermediate Flash occurs at the time of shot ejection and persists until the chamber pressure drops. It is brightest at the edge nearest the gun and gradually fades as the distance from the muzzle increases. This flash is due to a Mach shock wave created by the escaping gasses and projectile which, with its attendant pressure rise, causes the propellant gases to attain a temperature almost equal to the chamber temperature and so become self-luminescent.
4) Secondary Flash appears beyond the zone of the intermediate flash and is a rather ragged vortex of yellowish white flame. This is a result of the ignition of the combustible mixture of propellant gases and atmospheric oxygen caused by the turbulent mixing occurring at the boundary of the gas jet as it leaves the muzzle. The ignition of this mixture would appear to be initiated by its exposure to the high temperature of the intermediate flash.
5) Sparks are a common feature of the flash for small arms. These can arise from the ejection of incompletely burnt powder particles or by the ejection of white-hot acid or metallic particles. The former can be crystals of potassium salts if the powder is a "flashless" one while the latter can be the residual fragments of the metallic components of the cap composition or fragments of burning metal from the bullet jacket or driving bands.
Of these five components, the intermediate and secondary flash are the greatest contributors to muzzle flash. Most of the radiated energy occurs during the secondary flash and this can be greatly reduced by attaching a flash reducing device to the gun muzzle. These are commonly known as "Flash Suppressors" and appear on many military-style small arms and automatic weapons. These attachments act by modifying the gas glow pattern such that there is no region or a greatly reduced region in which the inflammable mixture of air and muzzle gases is sufficiently hot enough to ignite. It should be realized that there are other kinds of Flash Suppressors which do not modify the gas flow patterns in this manner but instead work by directing part of the muzzle gasses away from the shooter. These kinds of Flash Suppressors and the simpler "Flash Hider" muzzle attachments are intended primarily to reduce or block the muzzle flash from the vision of the shooter in order to maintain his night vision, they do little to reduce the size of the flash itself.
Five Kinds of Flash
Image from "Combat Systems I: Sensors" by Dr. Robert Harney of the Naval Post Graduate School
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm
Muzzle flash: What is it and what causes it?
http://legallyarmedamerica.com/2014/01/10/muzzle-flash-what-is-it-and-what-causes-it/
mikecr said:
mikecr, the definition of reality check.
1. Reality Check - an occasion on which one is reminded of the nature of things in the real world.
2. An assessment to determine if one's circumstances or expectations conform to reality.
Below is actual reality and a Smith & Wesson .44 magnum 629 Backpacker 2 5/8" barrel and a max load of H110 powder.
And now I remember why the hair on my knuckles is so short.
Muzzle Flash
When a gun fires, only about 30% of the chemical energy released from the propellant is converted into the useful kinetic energy of actually moving the projectile down the barrel. The remaining energy is primarily contained in the propellant gas-particle mixture that escapes from the muzzle of the gun in the few milliseconds before and after shot ejection. A significant portion of this remaining energy is dissipated in the bright "muzzle flash" seen when the gun fires.
This flash consists of at least the following five components:
1) Muzzle Glow
2) Primary Flash
3) Intermediate Flash
4) Secondary Flash
5) Sparks
1) Muzzle Glow is usually a reddish white glow or tongue of flame at the muzzle that appears just prior to shot ejection and persists after shot ejection until the chamber pressure drops significantly.
The initial glow is usually the result of hot, highly compressed gases (unburned propellants) leaking past the projectile driving band and is brightest in a worn gun.
These gasses are hot enough to emit radiation in the visible light band. A "Cold Gun" with its lubricated barrel generally shows less muzzle glow than does a "Hot Gun" with its expanded barrel.
2) Primary Flash occurs after the projectile has exited the muzzle and is caused by those propellant gases exiting the muzzle behind the projectile. These are hot enough to emit large amounts of visible radiation but cool rapidly as they expand away from the muzzle.
3) Intermediate Flash consists of a reddish disc, slightly dished towards the gun, which appears about three inches (7.5 cm) from the muzzle of a small-caliber weapon and about 20-25 calibers from the muzzle for larger caliber weapons. Intermediate Flash occurs at the time of shot ejection and persists until the chamber pressure drops. It is brightest at the edge nearest the gun and gradually fades as the distance from the muzzle increases. This flash is due to a Mach shock wave created by the escaping gasses and projectile which, with its attendant pressure rise, causes the propellant gases to attain a temperature almost equal to the chamber temperature and so become self-luminescent.
4) Secondary Flash appears beyond the zone of the intermediate flash and is a rather ragged vortex of yellowish white flame. This is a result of the ignition of the combustible mixture of propellant gases and atmospheric oxygen caused by the turbulent mixing occurring at the boundary of the gas jet as it leaves the muzzle. The ignition of this mixture would appear to be initiated by its exposure to the high temperature of the intermediate flash.
5) Sparks are a common feature of the flash for small arms. These can arise from the ejection of incompletely burnt powder particles or by the ejection of white-hot acid or metallic particles. The former can be crystals of potassium salts if the powder is a "flashless" one while the latter can be the residual fragments of the metallic components of the cap composition or fragments of burning metal from the bullet jacket or driving bands.
Of these five components, the intermediate and secondary flash are the greatest contributors to muzzle flash. Most of the radiated energy occurs during the secondary flash and this can be greatly reduced by attaching a flash reducing device to the gun muzzle. These are commonly known as "Flash Suppressors" and appear on many military-style small arms and automatic weapons. These attachments act by modifying the gas glow pattern such that there is no region or a greatly reduced region in which the inflammable mixture of air and muzzle gases is sufficiently hot enough to ignite. It should be realized that there are other kinds of Flash Suppressors which do not modify the gas flow patterns in this manner but instead work by directing part of the muzzle gasses away from the shooter. These kinds of Flash Suppressors and the simpler "Flash Hider" muzzle attachments are intended primarily to reduce or block the muzzle flash from the vision of the shooter in order to maintain his night vision, they do little to reduce the size of the flash itself.
Five Kinds of Flash
Image from "Combat Systems I: Sensors" by Dr. Robert Harney of the Naval Post Graduate School
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm
Thanks for the support bigedp51
Some powder(which has not burned) will eject at the muzzle.
For some reason this small amount didn't burn while subjected to ignition source, and all the pressure and heat in the bore.
And so all the powder that WILL burn in the barrel, has,, and the rest is just ejected out the muzzle amidst the fireball of gas flashing off.
So if the powder didn't burn within a short barrel, it would not burn in a long barrel either(like BillPa suggested).
With this I think 'burn%', if even somewhat representative of reality, is useless to us, and we don't choose loads based on it anyway.
Some powder(which has not burned) will eject at the muzzle.
For some reason this small amount didn't burn while subjected to ignition source, and all the pressure and heat in the bore.
And so all the powder that WILL burn in the barrel, has,, and the rest is just ejected out the muzzle amidst the fireball of gas flashing off.
So if the powder didn't burn within a short barrel, it would not burn in a long barrel either(like BillPa suggested).
With this I think 'burn%', if even somewhat representative of reality, is useless to us, and we don't choose loads based on it anyway.
bigedp51
mikecr
I'm not giving you or BillPa support or approval and I'm saying your both wrong.
So one more time, Quickload will show max pressure (pmax) and the percent of powder burnt. The light load of 231 in my 44 magnum and the Quickload chart shows all the powder burnt in 4.2 inches in a five inch barrel. If I switch to a really slow powder like H110 for my 44 magnum five inch barrel, Quickload will show 95%% burnt at somewhere over 20 inches of barrel length. Meaning less than 1/3 of the powder is burnt in my 5 inch barrel. This means the powder isn't all burnt in the first inch or two of the barrel and "WHY they make powders with different burning rates.
Now "YOU" and Bill have the OP really confused about your two guesses and "WHY" he spent all that money on Quickload and can't even get good AccurateShooter guesses.
Dear acssa, ask for a show of hands to see how many people own Quickload that replied here. It looks like savagedasher is the only one with his hand up, I can't raise my hand because my dog tried to eat and maul my Quickload disk when I was building my new computer and after I formatted my hard drive. Now Quickload is gone and just a faint distant memory of large muzzle flashes and not having a chronograph to test my loads. (sob, hic, sniffle) :'(
I'm not giving you or BillPa support or approval and I'm saying your both wrong.
So one more time, Quickload will show max pressure (pmax) and the percent of powder burnt. The light load of 231 in my 44 magnum and the Quickload chart shows all the powder burnt in 4.2 inches in a five inch barrel. If I switch to a really slow powder like H110 for my 44 magnum five inch barrel, Quickload will show 95%% burnt at somewhere over 20 inches of barrel length. Meaning less than 1/3 of the powder is burnt in my 5 inch barrel. This means the powder isn't all burnt in the first inch or two of the barrel and "WHY they make powders with different burning rates.
BillPa said:
Now "YOU" and Bill have the OP really confused about your two guesses and "WHY" he spent all that money on Quickload and can't even get good AccurateShooter guesses.
Dear acssa, ask for a show of hands to see how many people own Quickload that replied here. It looks like savagedasher is the only one with his hand up, I can't raise my hand because my dog tried to eat and maul my Quickload disk when I was building my new computer and after I formatted my hard drive. Now Quickload is gone and just a faint distant memory of large muzzle flashes and not having a chronograph to test my loads. (sob, hic, sniffle) :'(
Thanks guys... I have QL and when you apply different powders you get changes 100% fill and 93% burn. some powder are 100% burnt at 90% fill. Many say you want fill higher... +95%.
If you use a powder "1" you get 100% burn but reach max pressure at say 92% fill. If you use the next powder up in the line, powder "2" you get 100% fill and only 92% burnt with the speed only down by 40ft/s
I need to find out which is better with the focus on accuracy.
If you use a powder "1" you get 100% burn but reach max pressure at say 92% fill. If you use the next powder up in the line, powder "2" you get 100% fill and only 92% burnt with the speed only down by 40ft/s
I need to find out which is better with the focus on accuracy.
I personally don't understand why people are concerned with % burn & % Fill. It's well known what powders work well in just about every cartridge. No matter what the % fill you still have to shoot the rifle to see what works. I always assumed that the powders in the reloading manuals for a given bullet that showed the highest velocity were the most efficient, maybe not the most accurate in your rifle with a particular bullet. I'm sure that if a world champion shot his favorite load at night you would see a big muzzle flash. We don't need to worry about the scientific details of burning gas outside of the muzzle. Just shoot the rifle and find out what shoots small groups.
I would like to see less flaming on this website. We all have different work backgrounds and shooting levels. We are all trying to help each other even if we are wrong. If only world class experts were allowed to respond to questions only 5-10 people would be allowed to answer questions.
I would like to see less flaming on this website. We all have different work backgrounds and shooting levels. We are all trying to help each other even if we are wrong. If only world class experts were allowed to respond to questions only 5-10 people would be allowed to answer questions.
bigedp51
Webster said:
I'm not a world class expert, "BUT" in my opinion we had too many people making comments in this posting that did "NOT" have Quickload in this posting. And it didn't take an expert to understand the question was asked by someone who did have and used Quickload.
That being said I gave my copy of Quickload to a friend who has a chronograph after upgrading my computer and formatting the hard drive, meaning my new computer does not have Quickload on it now. Bottom line, without a chronograph to calibrate the burn rate in Quickload in my opinion Quickload is worthless. It is a nice piece of software BUT it doesn't help me enough to justify its cost.
Second, NECO is the sales representative in the U.S. and they do not own or own or have the copyright on this software. "AND" NECO is going around to all the forums saying you are breaking copyright laws by showing the output of Quickload. This is pure BS and all NECO wants to do is sell more copies of Quickload of which they get a percentage.
Bottom line my friend can keep Quickload and I don't need or want it back.
Dear NECO
Get bent, the output of Quickload is not copyrighted, the software program is and its output belongs to me and anyone I want to share it with.
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