Cartridge weights are inconsistent

[clunker]

That's 181.02 to 183.49 grains Uncle Ed. Pretty consistent for loaded factory ammo. Less variance than just the brass for most of the brands tested here many moons ago.

Get some Lapua brass and custom bullets or you'll drive yourself nuts. While you're getting set up to reload find some Black Hills blue box 52 grain hollow points. They shoot as well as most guys handloads.

And despite their claims Nosler and accuracy don't often show up in the same sentence.

Lapua is good but not always great. We waited a very long time for them to produce .221 Fireball brass and the first lot I got varied by +/- 2 grains. A four grain spread for a 95 grain case.

Thank you for your great response. I am still learning, and it appears there is a lot to be learned. Can you explain what you mean by "custom bullets"? The accuracy reviews on Nosler's ballistic tip bullets are as good as anything on the market, but their complete cartridges might be a different story.

Forgive me Uncle Ed. I work in a science field, and in my world, "g" means grams. I assumed that in the shooting world, "gr" means grains. I was not complaining about weight differences with factory ammo. I'm just trying to understand HOW factory ammo sucks compared to handloads. I intentionally posted this thread in the reloading forum because reloaders understand the specifics of cases, powders, and bullet weights better than a general forum. Just trying to tap the best brains.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Thank you for your great response. I am still learning, and it appears there is a lot to be learned. Can you explain what you mean by "custom bullets"? The accuracy reviews on Nosler's ballistic tip bullets are as good as anything on the market, but their complete cartridges might be a different story.

Forgive me Uncle Ed. I work in a science field, and in my world, "g" means grams. I assumed that in the shooting world, "gr" means grains. I was not complaining about weight differences with factory ammo. I'm just trying to understand HOW factory ammo sucks compared to handloads. I intentionally posted this thread in the reloading forum because reloaders understand the specifics of cases, powders, and bullet weights better than a general forum. Just trying to tap the best brains.

My sarcasm wasn't leveled at you clunker, it was leveled at Dave Berg and myself for not catching you were weighing loaded rounds and not empty cases. I even took my shoes off and double checked my math.

 

[Jackal2016]

Out of curiosity or for the curious, ... 1g = about 15.432gr .

 

[Dave Berg]

Can you explain what you mean by "custom bullets"? The accuracy reviews on Nosler's ballistic tip bullets are as good as anything on the market, but their complete cartridges might be a different story.

Many years ago competitive shooters realized that the commercially available bullets eventually became the weak link in their ammunition. Some guys made their own. If they were good they'd make a few extra for friends. Then they'd start selling them and suddenly they're in the custom bullet business.

They're made by hand, one at a time. Considering that, the price is very reasonable. The Nosler 60 grainers you were shooting are $23-25/hundred for just the bullet and the 52 grain Bart's customs that I shoot are $27. The difference in quality is dramatic. I have shot many thousands of Randy Robinette's BIB 118 grain 10 ogive 30 caliber bullets. If I start a new lot and the first bullet weighs 118.02 gr every bullet in that lot will weigh the same.

A very good way to learn what the serious accuracy folks are shooting is to go to the IBS (International Benchrest Shooters) website. Link below. If you go to the Results/Rankings tab you can see the results from matches and included in each, usually at the bottom, is an equipment list. That includes the bullets they were shooting. The "commercial" bullets, as in anybody can buy them from Midway, will be nearly all Berger with an occasional Sierra. It's very unusual to see Nosler.

You can also check out the 600 yard group aggregates. These are 17 pound guns built specifically for this activity. Custom action, custom stock, custom barrel, etc. A two inch aggregate (average of four, five shot groups) is pretty hard to come by.

When you get your reloading stuff together let me know and I'll send you some 52 grain Watson bullets. Originally made by Ed Watson, Bart Sauter bought his equipment when Ed passed away and still makes the bullets. They're spectacular.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/long_range/_longrangeindex.php

 

[grovey]

That's 181.02 to 183.49 grains Uncle Ed. Pretty consistent for loaded factory ammo. Less variance than just the brass for most of the brands tested here many moons ago.

Get some Lapua brass and custom bullets or you'll drive yourself nuts. While you're getting set up to reload find some Black Hills blue box 52 grain hollow points. They shoot as well as most guys handloads.

And despite their claims Nosler and accuracy don't often show up in the same sentence.

Lapua is good but not always great. We waited a very long time for them to produce .221 Fireball brass and the first lot I got varied by +/- 2 grains. A four grain spread for a 95 grain case.

I had the same schitty experience with the Lapua 221 brass. I bought L 221,223, 22/250 brass at the same time, and the 221 was the worst by far. Very disappointing.

 

[clunker]

Many years ago competitive shooters realized that the commercially available bullets eventually became the weak link in their ammunition. Some guys made their own. If they were good they'd make a few extra for friends. Then they'd start selling them and suddenly they're in the custom bullet business.

They're made by hand, one at a time. Considering that, the price is very reasonable. The Nosler 60 grainers you were shooting are $23-25/hundred for just the bullet and the 52 grain Bart's customs that I shoot are $27. The difference in quality is dramatic. I have shot many thousands of Randy Robinette's BIB 118 grain 10 ogive 30 caliber bullets. If I start a new lot and the first bullet weighs 118.02 gr every bullet in that lot will weigh the same.

A very good way to learn what the serious accuracy folks are shooting is to go to the IBS (International Benchrest Shooters) website. Link below. If you go to the Results/Rankings tab you can see the results from matches and included in each, usually at the bottom, is an equipment list. That includes the bullets they were shooting. The "commercial" bullets, as in anybody can buy them from Midway, will be nearly all Berger with an occasional Sierra. It's very unusual to see Nosler.

You can also check out the 600 yard group aggregates. These are 17 pound guns built specifically for this activity. Custom action, custom stock, custom barrel, etc. A two inch aggregate (average of four, five shot groups) is pretty hard to come by.

When you get your reloading stuff together let me know and I'll send you some 52 grain Watson bullets. Originally made by Ed Watson, Bart Sauter bought his equipment when Ed passed away and still makes the bullets. They're spectacular.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/long_range/_longrangeindex.php

I would be honored to try out those Watson bullets, but you might want to hang on to them until we see if I have any skill at reloading. I had no idea that custom bullets were even a thing. I am considered a master craftsman in certain fields, but I wouldn't even know where to start with casting my own precision bullets. Sounds like fun though. If the price difference is as small as you suggest, and they really do perform better, then it's a no-brainer. Thanks for the link. I will definitely check it out.

 

[Laurie]

Case weights from one manufacturer sometimes vary dramatically over the years. Back in the 1980s, whether by accident or design, Norma produced considerable quantities of very thin-walled 308 Win brass that weighed around 160gn instead of the usual 185gn or so with neck thickness readings barely above 0.012". I bought large quantities of factory 150gn PSP deer ammunition from this batch as it was sold off at very low prices as 'out of specification'. It was fine for deerstalkers who junked their brass, but its necks quickly split on reloading when fired in slack factory deer rifle chambers and it was resized in standard dies. Apart from that, it was very well made brass with a very high capacity. GB 'Match Rifle' competitors who use long ultra-long freebore chambers, heavy bullets and really stiff loads were into it for a while because of the capacity gain, but found it wouldn't take the pressures they run at. (I demilled most of the 600 rounds I bought, used the powder and bullets up and years later found it an excellent case for minimum SAAMI chambers in F-TR rifles and since then have reformed some to 7mm-08 where it's ideal. With tighter chambers, bushing dies and annealing every few loadings, its life is OK as long as loads aren't too high.) So if you mixed one of these cases into current Norma 308 brass you'd get a 20-25gn difference, but I've never heard of anything like 20gn variance in modern cases even from different lots of the same make. Mix different makes and it can easily happen.

I recently bought 100 new Serbian PPU 243 Win cases from the UK distributor. The packaging and labelling is obviously done by these people and I imagine the cases come into the country loose in 10 or 20,000 ct wooden chests, their contents from long production runs and maybe several machines or with form-die changes. I found a 7gn weight range .... and that I consider really large! I got nearly 5gn difference in 300 very early production Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor cases - and that affected the 'overflow water capacity' noticeably, more than enough to affect pressures and MVs.

Going back to weights of factory ammo, back in the days when our 'Target Rifle' (sling shooters) competitors mostly used match-issued military-spec 7.62, some perceptive users noticed that performance on the target could be improved (or more accurately, made less bad as some lots were notorious for producing 'fliers') by weighing and batching the rounds, those right out on the edges of the distribution used for sighters. In a single match with 22 rounds issued, there wasn't much benefit, but in multi-stage major tournaments, they could be batched for individual matches and the most consistent rounds used in the long-range stages. There are many people around where I'd take such a story with a grain or two of salt, but I learned this from John Carmichael whose outfit manufactured 'Target Master' match quality ammunition for 20 or 30 years and knew more than a little about what goes into precision ammo.

 

[Rust]

You're right Mike. I have some perfectly normal looking Lapua 223 brass around here that weighs 103-104 grains vs the 93-94 I normally see. Probably 15 years old. It doesn't have "Match" on the headstamp but it looks just like the new stuff.

Lapua changed their .223 brass some ten (?) years back. It ran about ten grains heavier than the later production brass. Took about a 0.9 grain powder charge increase to keep the same velocity when switching to the newer lighter brass.

Every brass maker has issues with brass, but Lapua seems to have them a lot less often. When I buy Lapua brass, I first order a box of 100 and if it checks out order a bunch of the same lot number. It can cost a bit more to do it this way but has proven to be worth the effort. At least for precision reloading. And quality brass cuts way down on prep time. I consider my time too valuable to waste it on substandard brass even for my other than competition rifles.

 

[dgeesaman]

Many years ago competitive shooters realized that the commercially available bullets eventually became the weak link in their ammunition. Some guys made their own. If they were good they'd make a few extra for friends. Then they'd start selling them and suddenly they're in the custom bullet business.

They're made by hand, one at a time. Considering that, the price is very reasonable. The Nosler 60 grainers you were shooting are $23-25/hundred for just the bullet and the 52 grain Bart's customs that I shoot are $27. The difference in quality is dramatic. I have shot many thousands of Randy Robinette's BIB 118 grain 10 ogive 30 caliber bullets. If I start a new lot and the first bullet weighs 118.02 gr every bullet in that lot will weigh the same.

I've been on the same journey as clunker is about to get into for a year now. I bought my first centerfire (Sako 6PPC) and the required reloading gear for it.

The trouble with custom bullets is they are mostly sold in larger lots. 500pcs is a lot of bullets before you know how they will work. Sometimes though they will provide smaller quantities because of this. I buy mostly Berger in 100ct boxes because I'm getting excellent results with them. Berger is the closest commercial supplier to what you can get as custom bullets.

Making your own bullets is only for the serious competitors who have spent $50k so far on gear and are ready to spend another $5k+ bullet making gear and mucho time to gain that next edge.

I've tried a couple of Nosler and gotten ok accuracy out of them. Sierra Matchkings have been more accurate than Nosler. I tried a box of Barnes once and the accuracy wasn't good. Everyone's results here will be different, but that's part of the fun.

Lapua does make the best brass out there. In 6PPC, Norma brass has served me well. Both provide nice consistent neck thickness. As I don't shoot more than 200y yet, pure velocity variations and therefore weight sorting is not very important. No matter, I'm now in the habit of using my brass in 25 or 30 count groups. I load it all and shoot it all at once and keep them together.

Pick a powder that's readily available and well reputed for your cartridge and stick with it for a while. For my 6PPC that was H322 and currently I'm using only LT-32.

David

 

[clunker]

I ordered some factory Lapua ammo in .223 and took it to the range. Easily the most consistent ammo I have fired through that rifle (spendy though). The odd thing is that Lapua recommends 1/9" twist for their 69gr Scenar-L bullets, and my 1/10" twist had no problem. When I start reloading, those bullets will definitely be on my short list, and I better start reloading soon because $160 (with my birthday discount) for 100 rounds will bankrupt me if I keep buying factory ammo.

 

[dgeesaman]

I ordered some factory Lapua ammo in .223 and took it to the range. Easily the most consistent ammo I have fired through that rifle (spendy though). The odd thing is that Lapua recommends 1/9" twist for their 69gr Scenar-L bullets, and my 1/10" twist had no problem. When I start reloading, those bullets will definitely be on my short list, and I better start reloading soon because $160 (with my birthday discount) for 100 rounds will bankrupt me if I keep buying factory ammo.

But you do end up with brass that's worth .64 /each.

Twist is a funny thing - stability depends on many things - velocity, atmospheric conditions, altitude, and bullet shape. You can push the recommendations a little bit but there will be no guarantees.

David

 

[clunker]

But you do end up with brass that's worth .64 /each.

Exactly why I bought the ammo. It was a risk buying 100 rounds of ammo, not knowing if my rifle could stabilize 69gr. I'm at 2500 ft in a fairly dry climate. Not sure how it would do at sea level in the South.