• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Cartridge development / trends

@jackieschmidt great detailed historical account / examples.

From what you are saying, its reads like the old NASCAR saying... "What performs on Sunday sells on Monday." While performance is no doubt determined by technical capability / "science" / ballistics, , at the end of the day, selling guns and ammo is driving the bus. And since sales drive the bus, we can reverse the old saying.... "What we think we can sell on Monday drives what we will spec out and test on Sunday."

Under this logic, manufacturers are looking for gaps in the market they can fill and sell en masse. (That's not a criticism of manufacturers, they only survive by selling. ) Once they find a gap, they start tinkering with case size, bullet weight, neck diameter, etc until they "stumble" on to something that shoots well (accurate / fast / good external and / or terminal ballistics, etc) and can be effectively marketed.

If this is true, they really aren't *starting* with technical / scientific / ballistic properties, to develop whatever cartridge performs and then seeing if there is a market to sell to.

In that case "short and fat" is not so much a technical reality to make 6mms shoot good so much as it is what shooters already believes shoots good, and so manufacturers go with short and fat, and add in some other wrinkle that will sell.

That's kinda what I'm "hearing" any way ...

I'm like a kid who just learned there is no Santa Claus.... :(
 
Another question.....

Does the work of wildcatters ever end up getting mass produced by ammo makers like Hornady, WInchester, Remington, etc?
 
garandman said:
Another question.....

Does the work of wildcatters ever end up getting mass produced by ammo makers like Hornady, WInchester, Remington, etc?
Click to expand...
One of the hurdles of wildcats is finding/making brass, especially quality brass but the Sherman line of wildcats has some of the best brass available and headstamped by ADG.
shermanwildcatcartridges.com

Sherman Wildcat Cartridges

Precision rifle cartridges with optimized efficiency for extended-range hunting and long range rifle competition.
shermanwildcatcartridges.com shermanwildcatcartridges.com
 
garandman said:
Another question.....

Does the work of wildcatters ever end up getting mass produced by ammo makers like Hornady, WInchester, Remington, etc?
Click to expand...
I'll put it this way.....If I come up with something that would rule the
domain for the next decade.....I aint saying squat !! :rolleyes:

Over the years, a certain break thru comes along. I guess you could say
that the latest and greatest on the bench scene has been the 6PPC.
The .222 was king for quite some time, Now comes this new 6PPC
wild cat and gunsmiths are making good money to keep up with
demand. I wonder what the time span will be before an upstart
dethrones the current 6ppc ?? Or is it already here but few are
having it chambered ??
 
Fuj said:
Over the years, a certain break thru comes along. I guess you could say
that the latest and greatest on the bench scene has been the 6PPC.
The .222 was king for quite some time, Now comes this new 6PPC
wild cat and gunsmiths are making good money to keep up with
demand. I wonder what the time span will be before an upstart
dethrones the current 6ppc ?? Or is it already here but few are
having it chambered ??
Click to expand...

By 6 PPC you mean that one catridge, or all the 6mm stuff?
 
garandman said:
By 6 PPC you mean that one catridge, or all the 6mm stuff?
Click to expand...
The only other 6mm that possesses the agging capability of the 6PPC in the 100/200/300 group shooting realm might be the 6BR shortened 1/8 or there about s, which made it around the same capacity as the 6PPC. It was popular with shooters who had rifles with .473 bolt faces.

Not to say that others might approach the level of precision demanded in the short range Group game, but to what end.

the 6PPC is kind of like the small block Chevy of Benchrest. There is an entire industry built around it.
 
jackieschmidt said:
The only other 6mm that possesses the agging capability of the 6PPC in the 100/200/300 group shooting realm might be the 6BR shortened 1/8 or there about s, which made it around the same capacity as the 6PPC. It was popular with shooters who had rifles with .473 bolt faces.
Click to expand...
What characteristics of the 6PPC make it agg better than a 6BR? What is meant by a shortened 6BR? Reason for asking is that I’m starting a new 6mm build and not yet committed to a chambering/configuration.
 
I guess what surprises me at local matches, is the amount of 6BR shooters that also shoot 30BR.

Notable mentions on cartridges that made if from wildcat to SAAMI.
7mm-08
280AI
6.5-284 (although i think this one is CIP)
 
rwj said:
What characteristics of the 6PPC make it agg better than a 6BR? What is meant by a shortened 6BR? Reason for asking is that I’m starting a new 6mm build and not yet committed to a chambering/configuration.
Click to expand...
For the yardages shot in short range group, the 6PPC seems to have that perfect powder column/bullet cross section. The 6BR tends to be a little over bore with 65/68 grn bullets.

The 6BR short, also known as the Tall Dog, is made by pushing the shoulder back .080 to .125 inch, reducing the cas capacity more equal to the 6PPC case.

if you are going to shoot any type of group shooting, just skip all the doubt and build a 6PPC. In fact, just for pure precision out to300 yards, hardly anything will beat it.
 
I jumped on the 6.5 creedmoor craze about 10 years ago. I understood it done nothing that a 6.5x47 wouldn’t do, but I go out of state for months at a time and usually take a rifle with me. This way I could take a batch of hand loads with me and if I ran out or went prairie dogging, I could buy a case of good enough shooting ammo.
Last winter I decided to try the 22 creedmoor, not really a wild cat, some factory brass is available, I made mine from Lapua 22-250 cases.
It’s a flat out lightning bolt. Less recoil to spot shots, shoots flat, I only need to come up 20.5 MOA to reach 1000 from a 100yd zero and great accuracy with the 90 and 95 SMKs.
I’m sure it will cook barrels, I’m planning on 1000 rounds per barrel, but what the hell, it’s fun.
The 22 ceedmoor doesn’t do much more than a 22-250 AI, but they run through a magazine better.
New cartridges may not do much more than the old ones, but it’s fun to tinker with them.
 
Last edited:
Fuj said:
The 6mm Creedmoor has been raising some eyebrows in
the long range steel event's. it's finding a home in factory
classes.
Click to expand...

The interesting part to me is whether the short and fat powder column or the long and tall powder column really makes a difference in the same bullet.... Or possibly case volume... Or do both shoot pretty much exactly the same.... I'm assuming of course that velocities will be higher with more powder...
 
I think riflewoman hit the nail...

With respect to true performance improvement, we are limited by the propellants and the ignition systems. These dictate the case volume, case diameter to bore diameter ratio, and case length that is optimal. And lastly, what are you trying to optimize? Accuracy? Range? Terminal performance? Barrel life? All these will lead you down different paths.

While there is no single solution as these cartridges have different goals and purposes, it is safe to say a short fat case with a 30 to 40 degree shoulder and a bore to case capacity in the 600 to 900 range seems to be the sweet spot for efficiency and barrel life. The rest is designing around these case limitations and fitting it to the desired projectile.

For things like the 6.5 CM and 300 PRC, these are just taking outdated designs (260 Remington and 300 Win Mag, respectively) and standardizing the chamber and brass to utilize modern projectiles. They aren’t getting significantly more speed from the same powder charges pushing the same bullets as the physics of nitrocellulose combustion and deflagration are the same.

Until we get propellants that can burn both slow and fast, or with 2 to 3 times the energy density, optimization and improvement will be incremental and miniscule.
 
3Sigma said:
I think riflewoman hit the nail...

With respect to true performance improvement, we are limited by the propellants and the ignition systems. These dictate the case volume, case diameter to bore diameter ratio, and case length that is optimal. And lastly, what are you trying to optimize? Accuracy? Range? Terminal performance? Barrel life? All these will lead you down different paths.

While there is no single solution as these cartridges have different goals and purposes, it is safe to say a short fat case with a 30 to 40 degree shoulder and a bore to case capacity in the 600 to 900 range seems to be the sweet spot for efficiency and barrel life. The rest is designing around these case limitations and fitting it to the desired projectile.

For things like the 6.5 CM and 300 PRC, these are just taking outdated designs (260 Remington and 300 Win Mag, respectively) and standardizing the chamber and brass to utilize modern projectiles. They aren’t getting significantly more speed from the same powder charges pushing the same bullets as the physics of nitrocellulose combustion and deflagration are the same.

Until we get propellants that can burn both slow and fast, or with 2 to 3 times the energy density, optimization and improvement will be incremental and miniscule.
Click to expand...

Agree with this exactly.

It's really just a slight shortening of cases, minor lengthening of the neck, sharpening of the shoulder, and establishing a SAAMI reamer with a FB to accept the modern "heavy for caliber" bullets.

You follow that formula, launch the cartridge with a ~5-10 million dollar marketing budget, and you've got a hit on your hands...at least for the commercial/hunting/plinking market.

It's not a bad formula either; so far as I can tell it's good for most everyone involved.

It gets your run of the mill gun buyer into a platform that is better suited for "long range", allows mfgs to crank out product, and perhaps most importantly, it gives us something to bitch about online.

Yes cartridge-Y has done the exact same thing just as well for the last X-years, the only caveat is that it required a custom reamer to accomplish it.

I think new cartridges getting popularized in competition is probably has more to do with modern bullet designs than anything; although I think that's about run its course. Maybe some neat .25 cal stuff for PRS in the coming years.
 
Last edited:
^^^^
I'm working on it!

While the heavy bullets in 25 caliber are doing well at long range, they aren't doing so well at short range. Before the BC really comes into play.
And especially something that suits the common 1:10 twist.

Aside from the 100gr MK, there isn't a match bullet with a decent weight. (The 115gr Berger VLD is in their hunting catagory)
Something like a 120gr Hybrid Target.

I'm pushing, and getting a lot of "that sounds good, or interesting", but not enough to be produced.

I'm now leaning on Hammer & Cutting Edge to see what they can produce.
Although a mono will have less weight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Classified Ads

Forum statistics

Threads
165,292
Messages
2,192,906
Members
78,816
Latest member
dancercc13

Share This Page

Back
Top