Cartridge Development Question

[asdf06]

How is tooling for ammunition brass related to a particular cartridge's parent case? I can't find an explanation for the entire process of cartridge development to mass production of brass under different manufacturers. I read this, but it's not holistic: "While it is easy to conceive of cartridges outside of established families (those with established case head dimensions) there is a powerful economic barrier to creating new cartridges outside of these families, due to the large tooling cost for a new cartridge." - here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US8443729B2/en

 

[RegionRat]

How is tooling for ammuntion brass related to a particular cartrige's parent case? I can't find an explanation for the entire process of cartriged develoment to mass production of brass under different manufacturers.

The question of tooling and the parent case, is one where what we call the "basic brass" can be common and the tooling shared between cartridges up to the point where the brass is "basic". The shoulder and neck are then formed according to the specifications of the cartridge toward the very end of the production process.

For an example, see the basic brass for sale on the Starline web site below and imagine that up to that point, the tooling will be the same no matter what that basic brass is destined to become.

Here is an example of what is called basic brass with the Grendel case head dimensions. It can become a number of different calibers from this point with simple shoulder and neck operations.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/grendel-basic

And here is the same concept with a 6.8 head destined for other wildcats.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/68-basic

And here is 223 head sized basic brass.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/223-basic

So, as you can see, at one time or another the basic brass is made available for the families of case head dimensions. From this basic brass, annealing, shoulder forming, and neck forming, are done in stages with simple dies common to reloading.

As far as the whole development to production process, it wouldn't be wise for a business to share their production planning, processes, or tooling designs would it? There is a great amount of time and money invested in these designs and it would be foolish to give that away when the value is very high.

You can get in idea of the whole production task from a publication written long ago that brushes on the steps without giving the store away. This was an NRA publication written by George (Jack) Frost on the whole process as it was when he worked in the industry. At an outline level, it hasn't changed much since then...

https://ia801603.us.archive.org/28/items/AmmunitionMakingNRAByG.Frost1990/Ammunition Making-NRA by G. Frost-(1990) _text.pdf

 

[Brians356]

You can get in idea of the whole production task from a publication written long ago that brushes on the steps without giving the store away. This was an NRA publication written by George (Jack) Frost on the whole process as it was when he worked in the industry. At an outline level, it hasn't changed much since then...

Yet another ammo/bullet man who lived and worked for a time in Lewiston, ID. The list is long.
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[Dusty Stevens]

Yet another ammo/bullet man who lived and worked for a time in Lewiston, ID. The list is long.
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I wish i could find an economical copy of that book. Its one i have been wanting for a while

 

[Brians356]

I wish i could find an economical copy of that book. Its one i have been wanting for a while

With today's digital printing, you could download that PDF and have a small shop print out an unbound copy. It's 176 pages, double-sided 88.
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[Dusty Stevens]

With today's digital printing, you could download that PDF and have a small shop print out an unbound copy. It's 176 pages, double-sided 88.
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You got a link? I cant seem to find it

 

[Brians356]

You got a link? I cant seem to find it

RegionRat posted it above, works for me.
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[Steel Mover]

You can Velobind it. Print it both sides with a laser printer using a PC computer with page numbers. Most print shops print to a mac or Microsoft word computer. Charge is per page printed not per piece of paper used. Copy on a thumb drive, You do not need special paper or primt.

 

[RegionRat]

Yet another ammo/bullet man who lived and worked for a time in Lewiston, ID. The list is long.
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Those guys were very generous with their time and knowledge. Definitely part of that breed they call The Greatest Generation.

You got a link? I cant seem to find it

Did you click on the link? PM me if you are still having problems and I will get you the PDF one way or another.

 

[Brians356]

This section in Frost's book, on making primers, illustrates what it really takes to clean metal parts (after the soap emulsifier stage):


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[Brians356]

Here's a wonderful excerpt from the powder section of Frost's book:

The ammunition side of the business was, of course, used to using Hercules and DuPont powders and was reluctant to accept any Ball powder that didn't exactly meet performance levels that had been achieved with the other long-established powders. There was at one time or another considerable verbal traffic and sharply worded communications between the two departments. Miller Hurley, the ammunition plant manager, on one occasion opined that the powder people made powder about like a new blacksmith would treat a piece of iron. The blacksmith would heat the iron up and beat on it—-if it split it became a fork, if it didn't split it became a shovel.
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[Brians356]

Here's a wonderful excerpt from the powder section of Frost's book:

:

"A revolver loses a certain amount of utility when a chamber splits and the top strap gets blown off."
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[jackieschmidt]

This section in Frost's book, on making primers, illustrates what it really takes to clean metal parts (after the soap emulsifier stage):

View attachment 1367412
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Sodium Cyanide!
Sulfuric Acid!

Some where in those instructions it should read……”avoid biting fingernails or picking nose”.

 

[FNSafari]

Sodium Cyanide!
Sulfuric Acid!

Some where in those instructions it should read……”avoid biting fingernails or picking nose”.

Yes, I caught the sulfuric acid but especially the NaCN. That is nasty, nasty stuff. Wonder how they dealt with all the rinse water? Hopefully the methods have been replaced with less toxic chemicals.

 

[Brians356]

Wonder how they dealt with all the rinse water?

Diluted it with more water, of course. Ultimately, the oceans are an infinite sink. And very resilient. Recall the "catastrophic" Exxon Valdez oil spill? "These fisheries will never recover!"
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[Dusty Stevens]

Lead styphnate is another bad one

 

[FNSafari]

Diluted it with more water, of course. Ultimately, the oceans are an infinite sink. And very resilient. Recall the "catastrophic" Exxon Valdez oil spill? "These fisheries will never recover!"
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Right out of college I worked in the chem lab of a big tungsten and moly products company. Light bulb wire was a big product, plated with gold. The gold bar was in a KCN/CN solution..cn being one of two things that can dissolve gold. Gold bar in CN solution, gold into solution then onto wire. I will suggest that the "neutralized" CN solution, after gold recovery, was NOT disposed of in any kind of a friendly manner. Yes, it ends up in the ocean, but there is a lot of in-between before that.

 

[Brians356]

From Mines, Minerals, and "Green" Energy: A Reality Check, Mark P. Mills, July 9, 2020

— A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds. Such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper, about 400 pounds of steel, plus aluminum and plastic.

— These substances must be clawed from the Earth. This battery's components would be purified from 12.5 tons of lithium brines and ores of cobalt (15 tons), nickel (three tons), graphite (a half ton), and copper (12.5 tons). Isolating these commodities involves excavating 250 more tons of dirt and rock.

— The mining of cobalt for batteries will need to grow 300% — 800%. Lithium production will need to rise more than 2,000%. The mining of indium will need to increase as much as 8,000%.

— The energy equivalent of 100 barrels of oil is used in the processes to fabricate a single battery that can store the equivalent of one barrel of oil.

— Energy-efficient pipelines carry 75% of oil and 100% of natural gas. For "green" machines, using trucks instead of pipelines entails a 1,000% increase per ton-mile in the embodied transportation of energy materials.

— Nearly all of the "green" machines will eventually show up in waste dumps. A decommissioned 100-MW wind farm's 20 turbines will pollute fourfold more nonrecyclable plastic trash than all the world's (recyclable) plastic straws combined. There are 1,000 times more wind turbines than that in the world today.

Too bad these efforts barely tame global warming. Copenhagen Consensus Center founder Bjorn Lomborg calculates that Inflation Reduction Act [sic] would decrease expected global temperatures by 0.0009°Fahrenheit to 0.028°F in 2100. Imagine lowering a thermostat from 72°F to 71.9991°F or (best-case scenario) 71.972°F.
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[Dusty Stevens]

Right out of college I worked in the chem lab of a big tungsten and moly products company. Light bulb wire was a big product, plated with gold. The gold bar was in a KCN/CN solution..cn being one of two things that can dissolve gold. Gold bar in CN solution, gold into solution then onto wire. I will suggest that the "neutralized" CN solution, after gold recovery, was NOT disposed of in any kind of a friendly manner. Yes, it ends up in the ocean, but there is a lot of in-between before that.

Dont pollute, dilute!!
Thats a saying power plant operators have used for generations on their cooling tower blowdowns

 

[Brians356]

Dont pollute, dilute!!
Thats a saying power plant operators have used for generations on their cooling tower blowdowns

That's why we have water purification plants to supply the vast majority of the US population.

As for the fish in the rivers, every fish-hugger in the Pacific Northwest will tell you "It's dem hydra-something dams wot kilt 'em!"
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