Carbon From Varget

[CaptainMal]

Replaced my Dasher barrel with a new one. That old barrel had been "compromised" with carbon build-up. It was cleaned religiously with a variety of solutions but none obviously worked until I used C4 and Iosso paste.

This is the tuner-brake I had on that old barrel for the last 1,000 rounds. Put it on the new barrel, shot a few rounds yesterday and looked. Now this tuner was always cleaned out with C4, a brush and patches on a pistol rod.

Forget it. I could see the carbon build-up in the ports in spite of my cleaning. Used a drill bit and LOOK.

Darn near 1/2 a spoonful of carbon when I brushed it into a pan after the picture. No wonder I had trouble inside the barrel.

Testing yesterday with IMR 4166 showed spikes in velocity and pressure as things got close to 3,000 fps. Going to just use Varget again. Darn I wanted to get away from all this carbon that goes with Varget use.

 

[Shynloco]

Darn I wanted to get away from all this carbon that goes with Varget use.

That's weird. I had been using IMR8208 because Varget wasn't available 18 months ago. On January 27 I finally got 24 pounds of it so I switched to it. Burned clean for me in the last barrel and just got a new barrel and it burns clean in this barrel too.

I'm no expert but I'm guessing your brake/tuner is the culprit.

Kindest regards,

Joe

I'm not in least bit surprised by OP's finding using Varget. I've used Varget in my rifles for years and it has been unquestionably amongst the DIRTIEST powders made, not to mention it's reputation for being dirty. But ya gotta wonder how many other powders would produce similar results, none of which I believe, are produced by any brake/tuner/supressor on the market.

Alex

 

[BradY]

RL 15.

 

[Joe R]

Shynloco said:
I'm not in least bit surprised by OP's finding using Varget. I've used Varget in my rifles for years and it has been unquestionably amongst the DIRTIEST powders made, not to mention it's reputation for being dirty. But ya gotta wonder how many other powders would produce similar results, none of which I believe, are produced by any brake/tuner/supressor on the market.

Alex

Could it be that some barrels fowl more than others? One of my barrels was a Krieger and the new one is a Bartlein.

Joe

 

[r bose]

I have a 223 barrel that was tumbling bullets at 600 yds. Thought the barrel was past it's prime. Was told to give it a good scrub with J B Bore paste before I replaced it and low and behold, it's back shooting. After telling my friend the results, he said carbon is so hard it was possibly peeling off some jacket material creating the problem.

I was using RL-15. My friend JB's his barrels every 4-500 rounds.

Lesson learned.......

 

[Shynloco]

Could it be that some barrels fowl more than others? One of my barrels was a Krieger and the new one is a Bartlein.

Joe

That is certainly possible that "some barrels" fowl more than others. But in three of my Kreigers, and a Hart, all different calibers, Varget was the dirtiest powder regardless of the bullet or weight of powder used during testing. And none of those barrels have a supressor, tuner or any other attachment. Others I shoot with and some who compete, have told me that Varget is a "dirty"burning powder. BUT, they use it because it produces their best loads/results, especially in 6mmbr. Personally, my 6br (Kreiger barrel) likes VVN133 better than Varget, but that's at 100 yds (which I shoot exclusively), and not 1K where some find Varget is their go to powder.

Alex

PS. In my .308BR (Kreiger barrel) I alternate powder between Varget, RL15 anbd IMR 4895. All three produce very tight groups pushing a 168 gr Sierra HPBT. And I've found Varget works better in temps under 90 degrees. where RL15 takes over. But IMHO, Varget is still the "dirtiest" of the three.
And as to the comments by r bose, no matter what powder you use, take your friend's suggestion as I follow much the same pattern of cleaning with JB's but more in the 300 - 400 rds down the tube number. Makes 'em shoot again really nice.

 

[Coolhand]

Varget is known here for glazing barrels up , and the old fashioned method of pouring boiling water down the barrel every 200 rounds or so is recommended & clean when the barrel is still hot.
Use a carbon cutter product such as Bore Tech C4 Carbon Remover with Varget particularly around the throat. Or switch powders.

Mike.

 

[wolley]

Varget is no more susceptible to carbon fouling than a lot of popular powders. If you are using a short barrel it exaggerates the problem.
Varget runs best on the warm side and in longer barrels to get complete combustion.
Give your load particulars, including barrel length, and I can run it through QuickLoad to see what your combustion percentage is.
In the AR15 I have found it to be noticeably cleaner than RL15. Not as clean as 8208 or N140 though.
In the Palma rifle it is among the cleanest. The dirtiest I have ever run in the Palma was MR2000. Absofreakinlutely Filthy!
The best Carbon Cutter I have ever used is KG1.

 

[CaptainMal]

Both old and new barrels are Krieger, 30". The old barrel started with 107 SMK's and 3.2 gr. of Varget. Then I switched to 105 Berger Hybrids using 33.4 gr. of Varget. Then it was high-pressue trouble and carbn fouling.

After dealing with it the barrel went another 1,000 rds with the 105 Hybrids and 32.6 gr. That, interestengly, gave me the same velocity as the 33.4 gr. load before the carbon problem surfaced.

No load figured out yet. Yesterday's first-time tests were not satisfying for pressure and velocity with 4166. I only loaded some Varget stuff to appx. 2930 fps. I want around 3,000 so need to test next with Varget probably in the 33.4 to 33.6 range to just get to 3,000.

Just interesting to me to actually see all the carbon that came out of that tuner/brake. I only started using it the past 1,000 rds as I used a regular brake before that. Earlier I cleaned it out and it was a variation of the same thing.

 

[Down South]

I also find Varget to be on the dirty side but it shoots very well in damn near every barrel i've run it through.

 

[wolley]

Both old and new barrels are Krieger, 30". The old barrel started with 107 SMK's and 3.2 gr. of Varget. Then I switched to 105 Berger Hybrids using 33.4 gr. of Varget. Then it was high-pressue trouble and carbn fouling.

After dealing with it the barrel went another 1,000 rds with the 105 Hybrids and 32.6 gr. That, interestengly, gave me the same velocity as the 33.4 gr. load before the carbon problem surfaced.

No load figured out yet. Yesterday's first-time tests were not satisfying for pressure and velocity with 4166. I only loaded some Varget stuff to appx. 2930 fps. I want around 3,000 so need to test next with Varget probably in the 33.4 to 33.6 range to just get to 3,000.

Just interesting to me to actually see all the carbon that came out of that tuner/brake. I only started using it the past 1,000 rds as I used a regular brake before that. Earlier I cleaned it out and it was a variation of the same thing.

32.6g should yield 3071fps and 100% burn occurs at 25" 64,000psig
Take the brake off. Can't use them in HP competition anyway. Tuner yes, brake no.

 

[Macropod]

Varget (sold as AR2208 here in Australia) is like most ADI powders in that it burns more completely and cleanly when running at 60k psi peak pressure. That said, for Palma style shooting or using the 308 with 155gn bullets, BM8208 or AR2206H (H4895 in the States) are the go to powders here. Plenty use Varget though. I think it is just a little too slow with 155grainers.

 

[Dans40X]

WHAT!
You don't like the greenish carbon shit from temperature insensitive Hodgdon Varget?

I'd revert back to black powder before using any Hodgdon product(s).

Burn some VV & don't look back.

 

[memilanuk]

Burn some VV & don't look back.

While I do like my Varget, I've had *very* good results from Viht N150, with less fouling. If N150 wasn't such a PITA to trickle I'd probably never stray. But it is, so I keep straying back to Varget One makes me cuss it when I'm cleaning, the other makes me cuss it when I'm loading. I spend a *lot* more time loading, so...

 

[snakepit]

My method for removing the carbon is to periodically use a Sinclair chamber plug and then fill the barrel with Bore Tech C4 Carbon Remover. I usually let the barrel sit upright for 1 or 2 days and then do my normal cleaning and verify the carbon removal with my Hawkeye Borescope. A technician at Bore Tech suggested this process to me and he said this will not harm the barrel at all and that they have some test barrels that have been submerged in their Carbon Remover for a couple of years with no damage. Also, Varget is the powder I use a majority of the time.

 

[Coolhand]

Varget (sold as AR2208 here in Australia) is like most ADI powders in that it burns more completely and cleanly when running at 60k psi peak pressure. That said, for Palma style shooting or using the 308 with 155gn bullets, BM8208 or AR2206H (H4895 in the States) are the go to powders here. Plenty use Varget though. I think it is just a little too slow with 155grainers.

Macro , good point , I switched to 2206H about 2 years ago & use it with both Sierra 155's & All the Berger 155's , best thing I ever did .
Mike.

 

[CaptainMal]

Lots of good options and ideas presented. Surely many appreciate them.

For me, I pretty much only shoot at the Manatee 600 and 1,000 yard shoots. Even during the "IBS STYLE" paper shoots we can use both brakes and tuners. My favorite is the gongs as you do get immediate feedback.

For me it's fun and Manatee tries to run a fun shoot. I have never attended an "official" IBS or other sanctioning body shoot. Many at Manatee do. Doubt if I ever will. From my limited experience with the "IBS Style" shoots at Manatee, they are getting into lots of rules, procedures and formats that kind of take the fun out of it for me. Some of us are about too stupid to even figure out the rules and prodecures, get yelled at for being stupid and then say "nuts" to the whole experience.

Others like that stuff. I go to shoot and have fun doing it. When it's no fun but just a chore to conform, I see far less participation. Well maybe not. I'm probably not there to know? For me and many others, it's not about winning. It's about shooting.

Never used a Vatavori powder. Some are available at the club but the the price is nearly twice that of other types. Just have to deal with the dirty Varget or maybe try harder to find H4350 (unobtanium product) and/or get IMR 4166 to somehow work. Of course I think it's just as dirty as Varget.

Thanks for all the comments.