Cant get Savage 11 - .308 to group

[rjtfroggy]

For seating debth try .018-.022 for starters that is where I find the majority of my Savages like to be(14 of them), only 1 likes to be at .045 and that is a 308 with 150 gr. SMK'S.
As for the stock loosen the action and bump the butt on the floor and hold pressure downwards and snug the front screw then the rear, then tighten both down, if you get the torque wrench try between 40-45 inch lbs.
Keep the front bag about 2" from the mag well to be sure there is no stock flex.
Of course all this is after you are sure it is not a scope issue.

 

[X Ring Accuracy]

Well....here goes....your rifle may be a 1/2 MOA gun. If your shooting skills are there, then you do have a problem, no doubt. Want to keep beating your head against the next available wall? Otherwise, have it trued, new barrel, trigger, stock, bedding, etc and it will out shoot you with factory FGM 168's all day long. Without the bare requirements I spoke of before, ie bedding and trigger, you don't know what you have. The flip side is build a great rifle and start shooting one holers. You may have a one holer and not know it. Flame suit on

 

[dogdude]

my brother in law bought a Savage 308 last spring, would not group his factory ammo, so I spent some time working up a load and nothing!!! borescoped it, never saw so many horizontal grooves. the gun didn't make it to summer. have it scoped by a pro and then you will know. all best Egan

 

[xs hedspace]

Had a .308 Savage a few years ago, that would collect copper so much, that the first group would be sub MOA, then after 3 five shot groups, shoot a 2 1/2" group. Helped the fouling by tight patching with heavy duty auto compound, but I put on a krieger, solved the problem. Sounds like you have a different problem, but check for copper at the muzzle anyway.

 

[thehebs]

I was able to get out to the range yesterday for a COAL test. My lands are at 2.275 (ogive) so I did .005 increments down to 2.245, .030 off the lands. Here are the results:

.015 off the lands (2.260 ogive) seems to be optimal as it held the lowest average of 2 groups at .896 and it also had the best group at .714 . I think I will go back to my ocw and ladder tests using this COAL in hopes that I can get more consistent data. I will report back with the results of those tests later this week.


One of the reasons that I might be having wide groups is that I am doing these tests round robin style. I shoot one round of each variable, then start over (or work my way back down/up). The first 2 shots of each variable seem relatively tight, with some of them going through the same hole, then the third seem to be the ones that are opening the groups up a bit, and i am suspecting/hoping this is due to a warm/dirty barrel.

I had nice groups with 175 gr FGMM. The first 2 groups were .668 and .669. (The 1.46 group was after an entire set of 3 shot groups from the COAL test so the barrel was dirty and somewhat warm(it was 35 degrees out though so the barrel never got too warm)).

Once I finish with the load dev for the 168 SMK's, I think I will give the 175 gr SMK's a whirl since I am having better luck with the 175 fgmm's compared to the 168 fgmm's.

 

[jsthntn247]

Your ladder test and ocw both agreed that you have a low node around 42.8 - 43.5 and high node around 44.8-46.0. Load 3 bullets each touching the lands varying by .2gr in these ranges. Take the 2 best groups from that test and seat the bullets at a .010 jam and shoot them and I believe you will hit on your best groups yet. Both of those nodes are right in line with every .308 I've ever seen.

 

[thehebs]

Your ladder test and ocw both agreed that you have a low node around 42.8 - 43.5 and high node around 44.8-46.0. Load 3 bullets each touching the lands varying by .2gr in these ranges. Take the 2 best groups from that test and seat the bullets at a .010 jam and shoot them and I believe you will hit on your best groups yet. Both of those nodes are right in line with every .308 I've ever seen.

So you recommend jam vs jump? I have just read that its best to jump.

From my initial data, I speculated about the same nodes as you. I was going to take 43 and 45 and increment by .2's, +/- .4 from each. Does this look sufficient?


42.6
42.8
43.0
43.2
43.4


44.6
44.8
45.0
45.2
45.4

 

[NateHaler]

'hebs, pardon the candor, but do you know how to shoot? It sounds like you know how to reload, so I presume you can shoot little bitty groups if the rifle is capable... but you have not said so.

The shooter is the first variable. I know if a rifle can't shoot easy sub-MOA groups that it's not me. And Federal Gold Medal Match is as much of a guarantee for excellent accuracy as there is in factory ammo in .308.

If a rifle won't shoot sub-MOA in the first few groups with FGMM, then I don't think it ever will, presuming you and the scope etc. are up to snuff.

So I say send the POS back to Savage, or buy a takeoff .308 Win Savage barrel and install it and see what you get.

Crown, bedding, trigger, scope, firelapping, seating depth, OCW, forget all of that crap. That's stuff to tune once you know your rifle is a keeper. I think you got a clinker, unless you're the culprit.

Regardless, good luck. It must be frustrating as H-E-double hockey sticks. If you were shooting Remington 'Extreme Range' (or whatever that fecal matter was called in the late 90s), I would absolutely blame the ammo. (It shot 3" groups in rifles that shot 1/2" groups with FGMM...).

 

[Varminator]

I built a Savage on a Target action, pillar bedded stock and a Savage factory take off barrel in 6BR. It didn't shoot and at first I thought it was the scope so I removed it and the scope/groups wandered around on a good rifle. I sent the scope in to get it repaired and put one of my good Nightforce scopes on and it still didn't shoot. I recently found a new prefit barrel on this site in 6.5 Lapua and guess what? Zeros and ones with the scope I had repaired. I still haven't found the best load and it even shoots with the 6XC brass I painstakingly made into 6.5L.
There is a friend I shoot with that had similar issues with a new Savage, same thing new barrel new gun very small groups.
Mark

 

[thehebs]

'hebs, pardon the candor, but do you know how to shoot? It sounds like you know how to reload, so I presume you can shoot little bitty groups if the rifle is capable... but you have not said so.

The shooter is the first variable. I know if a rifle can't shoot easy sub-MOA groups that it's not me. And Federal Gold Medal Match is as much of a guarantee for excellent accuracy as there is in factory ammo in .308.

If a rifle won't shoot sub-MOA in the first few groups with FGMM, then I don't think it ever will, presuming you and the scope etc. are up to snuff.

So I say send the POS back to Savage, or buy a takeoff .308 Win Savage barrel and install it and see what you get.

Crown, bedding, trigger, scope, firelapping, seating depth, OCW, forget all of that crap. That's stuff to tune once you know your rifle is a keeper. I think you got a clinker, unless you're the culprit.

Regardless, good luck. It must be frustrating as H-E-double hockey sticks. If you were shooting Remington 'Extreme Range' (or whatever that fecal matter was called in the late 90s), I would absolutely blame the ammo. (It shot 3" groups in rifles that shot 1/2" groups with FGMM...).

I will admittedly say no, and that I am "13'er", meaning I really just got big into shooting late last year, and just started shooting precision rifles a few months ago. I do read a lot and soak up quite a bit of knowledge in areas of interest so yes I have learned quite a bit about reloading, shooting, etc...

With that being said, I put up better groups with most of my rifles than a few friends who have been avid shooters for many years. I also feel that those 2 consecutive groups with the 175 gr fgmm at .668 and .669 in 10-15 mile an hour winds were somewhat assuring that it might not totally be me, and that this rifle and myself are capable of nice groups. I have watched quite a few videos of highly skilled and trained shooters put up worse groups with more expensive remington 700's and nicer optics.

Like I said above, I also feel that one of the main reasons for the wide groups in these tests is that I do them round robin style without cleaning, meaning that the third shot for each group is after 25-30 rounds through the barrel. The 2 - .6## groups with the 175 gr fgmm were with a cleaned bore and 1 or 2 prefouling shots. I feel like once I dial in the powder charge and couple it with the 2.260 ogive length, I should be able to have consistent groups < .7".

However, to throw a wrench in things, I am almost out of varget, and I cant seem to find anymore locally. I got lucky with the 1 lb I found at a small outdoors store last month, and I havent since seen a single lb of varget available online or in stores. I think I have enough varget to finish load dev for the 168's, and have maybe just enough to put up a few groups with whatever I find is the optimal load, but nothing more. I hate to have to start all over, but I will be switching to 4064 since I can find the it reliably at sportsmans warehouse, and other local stores.

 

[jonbearman]

With the plastic stock with the factory pillars the front screw should be tightened up to 45 inch pounds with the gun pointing straight up to seat the recoil lug.The rear I would start at 20 inch pounds and work up in 5 pound increments.The fat wrench from midway will help you get the torque correct. Torque is critical on savage's and the rear screw being the key to grouping a bit better.

 

[thehebs]

With the plastic stock with the factory pillars the front screw should be tightened up to 45 inch pounds with the gun pointing straight up to seat the recoil lug.The rear I would start at 20 inch pounds and work up in 5 pound increments.The fat wrench from midway will help you get the torque correct. Torque is critical on savage's and the rear screw being the key to grouping a bit better.

FAT wrench is on its way from amazon. I have been told multiple times that the accuracy of the savages are action-screw-tension dependent.

 

[NateHaler]

I think your cleaning regimen might have something to do with it, so my advice is to stop cleaning for now. For perspective, one of the best rifle shooters there is (Jerry Tierney) often doesn't clean his rifle during a whole weekend of match shooting, i.e. a few hundred rounds. And Jerry can shoot bughole groups with iron sights (let alone with a scope) that will make you wonder if he really has five shots on target.

Speaking of five shots, that's what your groups should be IMO. 3-shot groups are okay for a hunting rifle, or to foul the bore. But 5-shot groups are the de facto standard.

Good luck; I hope you're enjoying this quest rather than it just being an exercise in frustration. 8)

 

[thehebs]

I think your cleaning regimen might have something to do with it, so my advice is to stop cleaning for now. For perspective, one of the best rifle shooters there is (Jerry Tierney) often doesn't clean his rifle during a whole weekend of match shooting, i.e. a few hundred rounds. And Jerry can shoot bughole groups with iron sights (let alone with a scope) that will make you wonder if he really has five shots on target.

Speaking of five shots, that's what your groups should be IMO. 3-shot groups are okay for a hunting rifle, or to foul the bore. But 5-shot groups are the de facto standard.

Good luck; I hope you're enjoying this quest rather than it just being an exercise in frustration. 8)

Yea I have been curious about a proper cleaning regimen.

I am enjoying the process. It can be a bit frustrating, but its still fun. I understand this is just a cheap hunting rifle, but as my first precision project, I just want to see what kinda groups I can squeeze out of it. I will probably eventually throw some money down on a nicer rifle.

 

[NateHaler]

If you're in the liberal wasteland known as the SF bay area, PM me and I'll be happy to meet you at a nearby range and let you shoot my beaucoup bucks rifles.

 

[105gr]

I had the same issue with my 700. Wouldnt really shoot factory stuff very good and the first batch of handloads were even worse. I switched to a lighter bullet with faster powder and it will put 3 out of 4 shots in a quarter @ 100. What is the twist rate of the savage? You may just be shooting bullets that are too heavy.

 

[NateHaler]

I had the same issue with my 700. Wouldnt really shoot factory stuff very good and the first batch of handloads were even worse. I switched to a lighter bullet with faster powder and it will put 3 out of 4 shots in a quarter @ 100.

where does the 4th shot go? ???

 

[nastynatesfish]

Have you tried any different powder? I like Varget but have found H4895 shoots better. I'm using imr4007sc right now with 175s
This is a target on mine at 100 last weekend.

I'm now working on the load from max of 48gr to 49.5gr to check it. I'll take the best then adjust oal. I found most my rifles shoot better with a jump

 

[105gr]

I had the same issue with my 700. Wouldnt really shoot factory stuff very good and the first batch of handloads were even worse. I switched to a lighter bullet with faster powder and it will put 3 out of 4 shots in a quarter @ 100.

where does the 4th shot go? ???

just outside...probably me pulling the shot

 

[thehebs]

I had the same issue with my 700. Wouldnt really shoot factory stuff very good and the first batch of handloads were even worse. I switched to a lighter bullet with faster powder and it will put 3 out of 4 shots in a quarter @ 100. What is the twist rate of the savage? You may just be shooting bullets that are too heavy.

The savage is a 1 in 10 twist.

I actually think I am seeing much better performance with heavier bullets, .6" groups at 100 with 175 gr factory ammo (fgmm though). I think I can beat that with hand loads.

I will be getting my 168smk load dev knocked out this weekend, and then move to 4064, lapua brass, and 175 smk's.