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Can rake on the stock cause vertical?

ratbuster

Would a stock that has a lot of rake resting on the rear bag cause more variation in vertical grouping than a stock with less rake or no rake? I imagine variations in shoulder contact/preload and/or torso relaxation/tension comes into play more so with a lot of stock rake. Also would harder recoiling rifles be affected more? I appreciate any insights.

Phil
 
Short range br stocks have it and you can see vertical in the thousandths if its there and that design doesnt have it. Sandbag construction and fill plus gun balance have more to do with it than stock shape. Main thing i see when people post pics is a sandbag with an angle to it, a stock with angle to it, and they cant tell that the bag is backwards.
 
When the angle is on the extreme side it can cause problems if you do not shoulder the rifle. A friend has a converted Martini Cadet that has an extreme toe angle. Because it had been fitted with a 3" flat forestock he had been trying to shoot it like a bench gun, and experiencing quite a bit of vertical. I suggested that he shoulder the rifle and the groups were better than halved, but that is not a typical modern stock design. This is not his, but the toe angle is similar.
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This is the rake I am working with. I brought this up because I recently happened to be comparing two different shooting positions: bench off bags vs. prone with bipod and no rear rest; the stock was resting on gloved hand. The prone position showed less vertical but it was a fairly small sample size.
 
ratbuster said:
images

This is the rake I am working with. I brought this up because I recently happened to be comparing two different shooting positions: bench off bags vs. prone with bipod and no rear rest; the stock was resting on gloved hand. The prone position showed less vertical but it was a fairly small sample size.
Click to expand...

Make sure the stock is in the ears and not on the stitches, make sure the grip underhang doesnt hit the bag and for sure make sure the swivel stud is removed
 
Wow. A lot goes on when you pull the trigger. I have read that a LV (10.5 lb.) rifle recoils 5/8 inch by the time the bullet exits the barrel. To your question: how heavy is the rifle in question? how heavy is the trigger pull? how much rake are you talking about? Are you shouldering or shooting free recoil? I would say with a rifle with a lot of rake, shoulder ( not a death grip) would be the best way to shoot. Most important thing is to do exactly the same thing every shot.
Dick Weber did everything that a professional bowler can do wrong. But, he did it every time he rolled the ball. He's in the professional bowling hall of fame.
 
I run a McMillan A2 stock on my FTR rifle which has much more angle than most of the guys I compete with. When I used to run lighter bullets I could use a medium to hard hold and maintain good vertical. When I switched to the 200's at 2650 any hold produced unacceptable vertical. With as close to free recoil as I can get in FTR the vertical has been excellent. I run a Edgewood bag with canvas ears and keep the stock almost on top of the ears.

Not the most conventional technique in FTR but it is working for me.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Make sure the stock is in the ears and not on the stitches, make sure the grip underhang doesnt hit the bag and for sure make sure the swivel stud is removed
Click to expand...

The stock is in the ears. Of course I have no swivel studs on the stock (that's a generic photo). I am very aware about anything hitting the bag. Thanks Dusty.
 
Uthink Uknow said:
Wow. A lot goes on when you pull the trigger. I have read that a LV (10.5 lb.) rifle recoils 5/8 inch by the time the bullet exits the barrel. To your question: how heavy is the rifle in question? how heavy is the trigger pull? how much rake are you talking about? Are you shouldering or shooting free recoil? I would say with a rifle with a lot of rake, shoulder ( not a death grip) would be the best way to shoot. Most important thing is to do exactly the same thing every shot.
Dick Weber did everything that a professional bowler can do wrong. But, he did it every time he rolled the ball. He's in the professional bowling hall of fame.
Click to expand...
Rifle is a 6 BR about 16 lbs. It also has a muzzle break for shooting varmints (to see impact) so it recoils lightly. I generally shoot with very light shoulder pressure but I have shot free recoil as well but results are not as good with no shoulder pressure.
 
ratbuster said:
NO it does not. The stock is not a benchrest stock but rather a varmint stock and has a radiused forearm.

Phil
Click to expand...

How light is your trigger? Sometimes they cause vertical issues. Also try rabbit ear rear bags if youre using bunny ears. With the radius forend you need as much support as possible to keep from rocking. Pack the ears so that they are stiff enough to keep the stock off the stitches but soft enough to contour and support the stock. Another option is to get a bag rider for the front. Keep us posted on your testing.
 
ratbuster said:
NO it does not. The stock is not a benchrest stock but rather a varmint stock and has a radiused forearm.

Phil
Click to expand...

I would say that whether it is a benchrest stock or not, it should return to being on target after firing and returning to battery. I had a similar problem that I was challenged with a few years ago. I just couldn't get satisfactory vertical groups but I knew the rifle could be better. As some have suggested above, getting the rear bag to proper hardness, stock placement and slipperiness for consistency is key. Don't let the bottom of the stock go all the way down to the stitches of the rear bag. Also changing the position of the front rest/bipod so more or less weight hangs past it can help. Once I got the rifle to return to "on target" after firing and returning to battery, the problem was solved.
Best Wishes.
 
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Dusty Stevens said:
Short range br stocks have it and you can see vertical in the thousandths if its there and that design doesnt have it. Sandbag construction and fill plus gun balance have more to do with it than stock shape. Main thing i see when people post pics is a sandbag with an angle to it, a stock with angle to it, and they cant tell that the bag is backwards.
Click to expand...

Which way should the bag be? Should the angles be going the same way or the oposit? I have the protector bag with the carry handle and run the handle to the rear.
 
22BRGUY said:
When you push the rifle back forward to battery after firing, are the crosshairs exactly on target again?
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Given the design of his stock, I would say that there is no chance that his rifle would track in the manner you described, none.
 
BoydAllen said:
Given the design of his stock, I would say that there is no chance that his rifle would track in the manner you described, none.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree Boyd. I've been there done that, but yes that is just my experience with my rifle with considerable toe rake. I was just trying to offer a possible option, and it has the same style of forend he described
 
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