Can a rifle zero a given factory load well, but at 500 yards throw rounds all over?

[Coyotefurharvester]

I don't shoot alot of factory rounds. Last were some 30TC 165 gr SST I got on clearance for 9.00 a box(yes I bought all of them + the 150's). Previously only 165 gr handloads, which held moa to 465 yards(didn't feel the need to shoot a hunting rifle further than that). The factory rounds were +,- moa at 100 but 300 yards 4-5 inch groups and would also be slightly left of expected. Fine for deer/elk but looked terrible next to the same bullet handloads. Shooting prone bipod handheld like long hunting shots.

 

[DirtySteve]

I am going to just throw this out there as a thought, it may be that the load is not pushing the bullet fast enough to keep it stable.

I run my loads at near maximum according to the manuals. That being said I don’t tolerate my brass being beaten up by high pressure. So any signs of high pressure I then generally back them off. Some guns are over published maximum by a little some are just under. I want performance with out issues.

Steve

 

[jelenko]

What are you doing differently between the two distances ? Same bench, same bipod / rest ?

This^

If that's not the cause, it would be interesting to see bullet holes at 500 yards - to confirm the bullets are stabilized. They should be but just to confirm.

 

[Ed kof]

I happen to be going through the same thing with a 6.5 creedmoor. Groups at 100 are in the .250 range. At 600 it’s 6 to 8 inch. I’ve ordered a different bullet to see if that makes a difference. I was expecting sub 3 inch groups when it shot so well at 100. Been shooting for over 50 years and I’m still surprised some times. Edk

 

[David Milisock]

Short answer, YES!
Long answer, I have 2 rifles in 223 and 1 in 556.45, one rifle is a breakopen for training the grandkids, one is a serious varmint rifle on a Howa 1500 varmint action. The third, a 5.56x45 is a serious 1990's SPR on a Colt A2 HBAR, in LE/Delta configuration. The difference is the 3x9 x 50mm Redfield scope for the LE. Thes rifles a the military are the extent of my experience with the 223/5.56×45.
Leaving the grandkids out the Howa performs to my standards for varmints of trajectory and groups out to 350 yards. To achieve that I reduced bullett weight and increased velocity. I shoot crows and head shoot chucks, small targets, I have made a 500 yard chuck shot, but I missed, due to the range I aimed for the body but hit the head. A dead chuck but not where I intended to hit him.

The A2 has a 1-7 twist and stabilizes heavies well, it even shoots sub minute 100 yard groups. With that said the trajectory sucks, and when comparing to the M193 and M855 the 77's do better in terms of making hits on steel out to 500 yards, but (and this is due to wind) just are barely useful. With comparing 68-69 grain 62,000 PSI handloads, in my area, I can make a 300-400 yard varmint/tactical shot 100% of the time only in 20% of the weather conditions. The lighter match bullettes are faster and can regularly produce 8" plate hits and if I lay off the coffee even smaller. The 77's regularly drop a few off the 8" mark.

So the long answer was also yes!

 

[David Milisock]

I happen to be going through the same thing with a 6.5 creedmoor. Groups at 100 are in the .250 range. At 600 it’s 6 to 8 inch. I’ve ordered a different bullet to see if that makes a difference. I was expecting sub 3 inch groups when it shot so well at 100. Been shooting for over 50 years and I’m still surprised some times. Edk

What bullet? What conditions?

 

[Ed kof]

The bullet is the 140 hornady match. It’s all they had locally. Conditions have varied day to day but a couple other rifles are in the 3 inch range the same days.. I’m hoping the Sierra 140 will shoot better at range. Edk

 

[charlie b]

Try the Bergers I had trouble with the Hornady 140 and 147 ELDM's with my 6.5CM. Berger 140's cut groups almost in half at 600yd. Didn't try that Sierra but the 123 Sierra was the same as the Hornady's. I am going to try the 123 ELD's just cause they are cheaper than the Bergers. Keeping my fingers crossed. If not I may just toss the barrel and get a cartridge I like

As for range and group size, yes, I've had poor showing at range with some loads that did well up close. I've also had some that were 1" at 100 and 1.5" at 300. That was repeated quite a few times and still baffles me.

 

[Ed kof]

I tried the 128 eld and they were no better than the 140. I’ve had the Sierra bullets shoot very well out of my 6.5x284. I’ve since sold that rifle. Edk

 

[JFrank]

Thanks everyone. I’m going to reverify zeroes on the 69’s and check zero on some 77 SMKs. Next range trip I’ll shoot the 77’s. I may have also had some elevation setting issues with the 69’s . Think the BC in the ballistics formula may have been too low, making me adjust too high.
I think this is most likely a shooter and ammo issue as opposed to equipment.

It’s most likely tune related.
If you’ll share your tuning targets and practices, these guys can help you get squared away.

 

[Turkeytider]

Thanks everyone. I’m going to reverify zeroes on the 69’s and check zero on some 77 SMKs. Next range trip I’ll shoot the 77’s. I may have also had some elevation setting issues with the 69’s . Think the BC in the ballistics formula may have been too low, making me adjust too high.
I think this is most likely a shooter and ammo issue as opposed to equipment.

It’s most likely tune related.
If you’ll share your tuning targets and practices, these guys can help you get squared away.

Well, today I verified my zero with the ADI 69 SMKs. For whatever reason, my zero was high. That matches what I was experiencing at the range. Was shooting high for the most part. Maybe not all, but certainly could have been at least some of my problem.

 

[jelenko]

Other than getting on paper, for grouping, zero's don't matter.
Being off on the zero at 500 yards would not be the cause of 'all over the place'.

 

[Turkeytider]

Other than getting on paper, for grouping, zero's don't matter.
Being off on the zero at 500 yards would not be the cause of 'all over the place'.

I know what you mean, but for the most part I was unexpectedly high and started spinning the elevation turret down, left and right. I got confused. “ All over the place” was a rather melodramatic description and probably didn’t give the best mental picture. I had some hits that were on line windage wise but were several inches high . Thanks.

 

[big5ifty]

Shooting off a bipod in a hunting position is not for the weak.

It's already very good shooting to hit what you're aiming for at 500 yards, positioned like that.

Load up a bunch of ammo, and practice. The best days to practice are when the wind is blowing.

 

[bsekf]

Doesn't take much wind to mess up a 22 bullet. I wouldn't much testing unless I was shoot off a solid bench with a good front and rear rest and 30+x scope and 5 or 6 wind flags. 500 yards is a long way! Mid range trajectory must be nearly 50 inches.

 

[Turkeytider]

Doesn't take much wind to mess up a 22 bullet. I wouldn't much testing unless I was shoot off a solid bench with a good front and rear rest and 30+x scope and 5 or 6 wind flags. 500 yards is a long way! Mid range trajectory must be nearly 50 inches.

It’s a challenge, alright, particularly if there’s any breeze. Particularly so shooting factory ammunition. My chronograph showed me why stringing sequential hits on a 4” gong at 500 is difficult ( well, at least for me! ). A lot can go wrong!

 

[jelenko]

I know what you mean, but for the most part I was unexpectedly high and started spinning the elevation turret down, left and right. I got confused. “ All over the place” was a rather melodramatic description and probably didn’t give the best mental picture. I had some hits that were on line windage wise but were several inches high . Thanks.

Ah. Then just repeat the 500 yard test without touching the scope turrets.
And, don't worry about the chrono - just do the best job you can on executing the shot.

 

[Turkeytider]

Ah. Then just repeat the 500 yard test without touching the scope turrets.
And, don't worry about the chrono - just do the best job you can on executing the shot.

Will do, and thanks. I have to say that it’s been my experience that more often than not I find I have to make minor adjustments to the scope settings that the ballistic calculator indicates to get on target.

 

[ebb]

What Dirty Steve said. It sounds like the bullet is going so slow it is subsonic at 500. This should noy be happening with a load done anywhere close to max. I cannot find any ballistics on the ADI ammo.

 

[Jon Leary]

Get some 80 gr Sierra Matchkings and 24 grns of Varget.