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Calculation of Bullet Drop/ Various Models

HappyHellfire

Silver $$ Contributor
Hi, I'm Dr. John Stutz and I teach ballistics to engineers and scientist. Did you know that there are multiple different ways to calculate bullet drop?

The first way is called the vacuum method. Many people learned this in high school physics. This method is still useful for long range rifle fire and is still taught. For example, the Rifleman's Rule to adjust for shooting up or down hill is derived from the simple vacuum model. It is also pretty good for a quick estimate for things like pistols and short distance rifle.

The second set of methods is called the flat fire models. We can assume the drag coefficient is constant for subsonic or extreme hypersonic bullets. We can also assume a k/M or k/sqrt(M) for the drag coefficient and the math becomes directly solvable (with assumptions of course). Finally we can create integration tables for the drag curve (Ingalls or Siacci Tables) and use the Siacci Method to solve for drop which is what is taught as a backup method in sniper schools.

We can also write a ballistic stimulation of the bullet to measure the drop. These also come in several different flavors. The simplest is a 2 degree of freedom (2DOF) that only measures range and drop. We have developed much more complex simulations like the 4DOF NATO standard simulation which is based upon the work of Lieske at BRL in the 80s. Finally we have full 6DOF ballistic models which model all of the forces on a bullet and are very accurate but run very slowly.

Finally, we have the good old empirical or testing model. Take the sucker to the range and shoot at different ranges to find drop and interpolate between them.

Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses.

What method do you use? If you use a ballistic calculator, what method is it using? Knowing the method your calculator uses will help you know the approximations that it is making.
 
I use Chairgun elite and I'm not sure how it calulates bullet drop. I then shoot to confirm or to tweek. Don't take a computers word for it haha. My range only goes to 400 so way out there I haven't a clue.... but it must be pretty close.
 
I use Chairgun elite and I'm not sure how it calulates bullet drop. I then shoot to confirm or to tweek. Don't take a computers word for it haha. My range only goes to 400 so way out there I haven't a clue.... but it must be pretty close.
Never heard of that one. From what I can find it's mostly used for airguns?

If that is true it is most likely a constant drag solver. I'd that is so it should be lightning fast but not super accurate for rifles.
 
I use the one on Hornady’s website (not sure what method they use or how accurate it is), then fine tune with sighters.
 
Hi, I'm Dr. John Stutz and I teach ballistics to engineers and scientist. Did you know that there are multiple different ways to calculate bullet drop?

The first way is called the vacuum method. Many people learned this in high school physics. This method is still useful for long range rifle fire and is still taught. For example, the Rifleman's Rule to adjust for shooting up or down hill is derived from the simple vacuum model. It is also pretty good for a quick estimate for things like pistols and short distance rifle.

The second set of methods is called the flat fire models. We can assume the drag coefficient is constant for subsonic or extreme hypersonic bullets. We can also assume a k/M or k/sqrt(M) for the drag coefficient and the math becomes directly solvable (with assumptions of course). Finally we can create integration tables for the drag curve (Ingalls or Siacci Tables) and use the Siacci Method to solve for drop which is what is taught as a backup method in sniper schools.

We can also write a ballistic stimulation of the bullet to measure the drop. These also come in several different flavors. The simplest is a 2 degree of freedom (2DOF) that only measures range and drop. We have developed much more complex simulations like the 4DOF NATO standard simulation which is based upon the work of Lieske at BRL in the 80s. Finally we have full 6DOF ballistic models which model all of the forces on a bullet and are very accurate but run very slowly.

Finally, we have the good old empirical or testing model. Take the sucker to the range and shoot at different ranges to find drop and interpolate between them.

Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses.

What method do you use? If you use a ballistic calculator, what method is it using? Knowing the method your calculator uses will help you know the approximations that it is making.
Do you really have to start off each new thread you post like a robot with the same cut and paste introduction?? We get John, sorry Dr. Stutz, you are a doctor, you teach ballistics to engineers and students…..blah blah blah.
 
JBM and Strelok but I am sure it a pretty well established equation. My buddy used to shot to 600 yds with a 100 zero and accurate chrono and adjust the BC with the 600yd dope.
 
I use the one on Hornady’s website (not sure what method they use or how accurate it is), then fine tune with sighters.
Yep, they use a 4dof or Lieske model that is the standard one that NATO uses. It uses a cool trick to estimate the yaw of repose which is used to calculate the spin drift. It is generally considered the most accurate point mass simulation for bullets. On the downside you need at least three aerodynamic coefficients (drag, lift, spin damping, and Magnus(optional)). Drag and spin damping are pretty easy to get from a good velocity radar but the other two are really hard to get accurately. Most bullets just use PRODAS or some other methods to estimate it.
So in summary, really good drop data and crosswind estimates but the spin drift is kind of weak. From their website:

Hornady 4DOF Ballistic Calculator provides trajectory solutions based on projectile Drag Coefficient (not ballistic coefficient) along with the exact physical modeling of the projectile and its mass and aerodynamic properties. Additionally, it calculates the vertical shift a bullet experiences as it encounters a crosswind; referred to as aerodynamic jump.

Notice that the Lieske method doesn't use the BC at all!
 
Hi, I'm Dr. John Stutz and I teach ballistics to engineers and scientist. Did you know that there are multiple different ways to calculate bullet drop?

The first way is called the vacuum method. Many people learned this in high school physics. This method is still useful for long range rifle fire and is still taught. For example, the Rifleman's Rule to adjust for shooting up or down hill is derived from the simple vacuum model. It is also pretty good for a quick estimate for things like pistols and short distance rifle.

The second set of methods is called the flat fire models. We can assume the drag coefficient is constant for subsonic or extreme hypersonic bullets. We can also assume a k/M or k/sqrt(M) for the drag coefficient and the math becomes directly solvable (with assumptions of course). Finally we can create integration tables for the drag curve (Ingalls or Siacci Tables) and use the Siacci Method to solve for drop which is what is taught as a backup method in sniper schools.

We can also write a ballistic stimulation of the bullet to measure the drop. These also come in several different flavors. The simplest is a 2 degree of freedom (2DOF) that only measures range and drop. We have developed much more complex simulations like the 4DOF NATO standard simulation which is based upon the work of Lieske at BRL in the 80s. Finally we have full 6DOF ballistic models which model all of the forces on a bullet and are very accurate but run very slowly.

Finally, we have the good old empirical or testing model. Take the sucker to the range and shoot at different ranges to find drop and interpolate between them.

Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses.

What method do you use? If you use a ballistic calculator, what method is it using? Knowing the method your calculator uses will help you know the approximations that it is making.
Hmmm, who is teaching who John? I’d think you would know the basic ballistic tools for shooting considering you have bullets for sale. I’m fairly certain that if I actually ordered bullets from your site, nothing would ever show up. I’m not sure what your angle is on this site, but I can tell you that all of your threads should be used in MBA classes as examples of how NOT to go about starting a new business and generate customers.
Good luck and keep those super generic threads coming with your same old dry ass introduction. By now I, like most folks on this site, almost have it memorized. lol. Still waiting for my bullets to test.
Dave
 
JBM and Strelok but I am sure it a pretty well established equation. My buddy used to shot to 600 yds with a 100 zero and accurate chrono and adjust the BC with the 600yd dope.
I checked them both out and it looks like JBM has a whole set of calculators. I bet he writes them for fun like I do. One of them is obviously the 4DOF but some of them look like the more simplified ones.
 
If y'all want to see what the flat fire solvers look like, I will attach an excel file that I use to teach one of my classes.

These run much faster than a 4DOF but they must be programmed in. They don't calculate spin decay or spin drift but are often used for rapid solvers like used in automated tracking turrets.
 

Attachments

JBM is pretty close as best as I can tell. We bought one for my wife (she's an archer) that a guy named Ratliff came up with and it had an app that would allow you to print a tape that would correspond to the sights she used and it converted where the pointer pointed to yds.
 
Never heard of that one. From what I can find it's mostly used for airguns?

If that is true it is most likely a constant drag solver. I'd that is so it should be lightning fast but not super accurate for rifles.
Chairgun elite is very much for long range nitrocellulose propelled projectiles. I like it because it calculates the yardage of ballistic reticle hashmarks (Leupold VH, B&C, etc) with changes of scope power.
 
John, do you shoot matches? Not trying to change topics, just seeing your thread after a hectic week. Matches are a major part of life for many, but range time that I’d call serious practice, for the smallest group size possible is the absolute common denominator of all on here. Shooting animals is a person by person preference, but that’s not much of a test for the guns and ammo we strive to use here. Most of us on here work, to earn to shoot amongst other reasons, some are manufacturers for this niche industry, but you are in that smallest group, at the professionally analytical end (shoot to earn) of this interest we share.

I’m going to assume there’s only one person in ballistics academia with exactly your name, and it looks like, from what I’ve read on your listed experience, you haven’t been limited to just small arms exposure. We in the competitive shooting world and accuracy hobby occupy a tight, narrow band on the spectrum of projectile ballistics, in both the uses we apply them to and the technology we have available.

The intended use of our non hunting projectiles is passive, to simply mark the location of impact for scoring purposes, or to otherwise be witnessed electronically for shot placement by triangulation of shock waves received by acoustic microphones at the perimeter of the targets.

The order of magnitude of drop and wind deflection differential that we all work within is 50-60%, between the extremes of the most and the least affected cartridge/bullet combinations that our rules for 1,000 matches permit. 21 versus 32 minutes of drop from 100 to 1,000 yards and a drift ratio of about 4 versus 6 minutes in 10 mph crosswind, from the least to most in current use.

It proves to be difficult to achieve the same rote accuracy potential shot after shot from combinations that yield the highest ballistic advantage, and that is what makes competition so engaging, searching for the formula that maximizes that person’s scores, considering the fact that wind reading skills and fundamental shooting ability vary so much from one to the other.
 
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Do you really have to start off each new thread you post like a robot with the same cut and paste introduction?? We get John, sorry Dr. Stutz, you are a doctor, you teach ballistics to engineers and students…..blah blah blah.
Yes he does, he loves touting his own horn, his website and his bullets for sale, while still not being a sponsor of the site. Although at this point I hope the forum denies his sponsorship. He is making his university look like woke hacks
 
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Well I just ordered some bullets from his site to put this to the test and end all debates. Let’s see if I ever receive any product. For the record, I was order #00004 on his site. No advice on what powder charge to use or how much I’ll need to come up at the 100 yard mark to have the same (or approximately same) zero as my current 6.5CM rifle. I only order a 10 pack of bullets so before I shoot them I will look for the best manner to do so from the entire team of n this site.
Dave M.
 
I checked them both out and it looks like JBM has a whole set of calculators. I bet he writes them for fun like I do. One of them is obviously the 4DOF but some of them look like the more simplified ones.
Do you currently have Strelok? Curious how you "checked it out" if not...
 
I use strelok which is no longer available due to russian sanctions. Hornady 4dof sounds like a good idea, but the GUI sucks a fat one. AB is ok, but im too lazy to re-enter all my gun info or pay for each caliber I shoot. Strelok is within a click or two at 1100 yards. IMHO, 99.9% of complaints about their solver not being accurate is user error. Junk in junk out. You need to be shooting > 1000 yards before a fancy drag model matters with a creedmoor class cartridge. Now the rimfire models Litz is working on, that is some interesting stuff.
 
I use strelok which is no longer available due to russian sanctions. Hornady 4dof sounds like a good idea, but the GUI sucks a fat one. AB is ok, but im too lazy to re-enter all my gun info or pay for each caliber I shoot. Strelok is within a click or two at 1100 yards. IMHO, 99.9% of complaints about their solver not being accurate is user error. Junk in junk out. You need to be shooting > 1000 yards before a fancy drag model matters with a creedmoor class cartridge. Now the rimfire models Litz is working on, that is some interesting stuff.
I have been a Strelok Pro user for a very long time. It is good. Any ballistic solver suffers from garbage in, garbage out. Aside from BC variations from published, the next biggest problems I see users having is 1) scope height as this directly affects predicted adjustments (higher looks flatter on paper) and 2) zero offset. Shooting 1" high to preserve aiming point but not putting an offset in your zero distance will have you scratching your head if you go from 100y zero to 1000y as it will likely be close to 1.5moa off.
 

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