C.O.L variation depending ''reloading chart''

[Varmintprecision]

Hi again!
As new reloader there is still some things that i do not understant for Cartridge overal legth.
I am doing a try on 40grains v max bullet 223. My hornady App tell me i need 2.200 as C.O.L. The Hodgdon (not use 60 gr v max bullet) tell 2.280...It seems a large difference. How do this can happen? Only because they not use v-max bullet? Could i set the COL to 2.28 on V max or too much? I know that deeper in brass can be dangerous...Could someone ecplain me?
Thank you.
Mat

 

[K22]

The most effective way to address this issue in my opinion is to measure the max COL for the rifle and bullet you are using. This gives you the dimensions you are dealing with for that specific combination. See Note below.

There are a number of ways to accomplish this from using tools designed to measure the max COL to simply using a "dummy" round with only the very tip of case neck sized just enough to hold the bullet in place then chambering it to push the bullet into the case to the max COL dimension then measuring with a caliper.

I prefer the cheap, simple to use Frankfort Arsenal tool. If your handy, you can make your own for less than five dollars. All you need is a cleaning rod, two nylon spacers and two nylon screws available at Lowe's or Home Depot. You will also need to modify a jag, so it has a flat tip. Using a tool designed for this purpose in better in my opinion since it easier to measure several bullets in a lot.

Note: However, keep in mind that this measurement is subject to some slight variation due to differences in bullet ogive. The amount of variation is dependent on the quality and consistency of the bullets. Quality match grade bullets tend to have more uniform ogives than run of the mill hunting bullets.

So, it's a good idea to measure a few bullets from a lot and determine the approximate max and min. Depending the variation I find in a lot, I give myself an extra .005" margin of error to avoid jamming the bullet into the lands.

I load so at least one bullet diameter is seated in the neck and I'm at least 0.015" from the lands. This prevents a bullet from being jammed and sticking in the lands when you extract an unfired round - something you want to avoid in the field.

 

[Bill Norris]

Hi again!
As new reloader there is still some things that i do not understant for Cartridge overal legth.
I am doing a try on 40grains v max bullet 223. My hornady App tell me i need 2.200 as C.O.L. The Hodgdon (not use 60 gr v max bullet) tell 2.280...It seems a large difference. How do this can happen? Only because they not use v-max bullet? Could i set the COL to 2.28 on V max or too much? I know that deeper in brass can be dangerous...Could someone ecplain me?
Thank you.
Mat

U would need to check for max. OAL for your rifle.

 

[RegionRat]

..."The Hodgdon (not use 60 gr v max bullet) tell 2.280...It seems a large difference. How do this can happen?"...

There are often significant differences between loading manuals, even when they match the seating depths and barrel length details. Hodgdon's data doesn't include every bullet and sometimes there also needs to be a consideration for the platform like in the example of an AR and the need for a particular range of port pressure.

..."Could i set the COL to 2.28 on V max or too much?"... The 2.280 is getting long for the 40 VMax in terms of the grip of the case neck on the bullet. That bullet has a small boat tail, so at 2,280" you would have less than one bullet diameter into the neck and even though you could develop that load, the cartridge would be flimsy.

This next sentence is just my own observation and opinion.
Some 223 data that is shown longer than 2.250" is intended to mean it is too long for the AR magazine and may or may not consider the gas action of the AR platform.

The 60 VMax can be loaded below 2.250" in order to be run in an AR magazine. However, the powder selection and charge would need to accommodate the AR port pressure issues. Even 77 grain bullets are commonly seated deep for the AR platform, but published data for seating depths that show it way beyond 2.250" isn't meant for the AR platform.

Take carful note of the details of the loading manual. Some are based on test machines, some are based on bolt guns, some are okay for AR platforms... but be carful not to go too far away from the manual when changing the platform or the recipe.

There isn't anything wrong with the Hodgdon data, but the Hornady data for their own bullets would give you a better perspective. Especially when they distinguish between the bolt and AR platform since that often drives not just the powder selection but the seating depth too.

Some light bullets may or may not seat out very far depending on their base design, boat tail versus flat base for example makes a big difference. So you can just as often go longer than a load manual, but you take responsibility for considering the other issues.

As a beginner, be careful if you are taking load data and using it in an AR platform if you see it was published longer than 2.250" since the port pressure may not be happy.

The seating depth going shorter than a published recipe means you have to assume you must start low and work up to avoid overpressure. Seating longer means being careful with the jam issues and it is still advisable to start well away from the higher end of a recipe. You can then study how to develop a load with seating depth being a variable in a way similar to how the charge is a variable, but play it safe. You can take the 60 VMax below 2.280" if you are carful, but taking the 40 VMax out that far isn't advisable.

 

[Varmintprecision]

..."The Hodgdon (not use 60 gr v max bullet) tell 2.280...It seems a large difference. How do this can happen?"...

There are often significant differences between loading manuals, even when they match the seating depths and barrel length details. Hodgdon's data doesn't include every bullet and sometimes there also needs to be a consideration for the platform like in the example of an AR and the need for a particular range of port pressure.

..."Could i set the COL to 2.28 on V max or too much?"... The 2.280 is getting long for the 40 VMax in terms of the grip of the case neck on the bullet. That bullet has a small boat tail, so at 2,280" you would have less than one bullet diameter into the neck and even though you could develop that load, the cartridge would be flimsy.

This next sentence is just my own observation and opinion.
Some 223 data that is shown longer than 2.250" is intended to mean it is too long for the AR magazine and may or may not consider the gas action of the AR platform.

The 60 VMax can be loaded below 2.250" in order to be run in an AR magazine. However, the powder selection and charge would need to accommodate the AR port pressure issues. Even 77 grain bullets are commonly seated deep for the AR platform, but published data for seating depths that show it way beyond 2.250" isn't meant for the AR platform.

Take carful note of the details of the loading manual. Some are based on test machines, some are based on bolt guns, some are okay for AR platforms... but be carful not to go too far away from the manual when changing the platform or the recipe.

There isn't anything wrong with the Hodgdon data, but the Hornady data for their own bullets would give you a better perspective. Especially when they distinguish between the bolt and AR platform since that often drives not just the powder selection but the seating depth too.

Some light bullets may or may not seat out very far depending on their base design, boat tail versus flat base for example makes a big difference. So you can just as often go longer than a load manual, but you take responsibility for considering the other issues.

As a beginner, be careful if you are taking load data and using it in an AR platform if you see it was published longer than 2.250" since the port pressure may not be happy.

The seating depth going shorter than a published recipe means you have to assume you must start low and work up to avoid overpressure. Seating longer means being careful with the jam issues and it is still advisable to start well away from the higher end of a recipe. You can then study how to develop a load with seating depth being a variable in a way similar to how the charge is a variable, but play it safe. You can take the 60 VMax below 2.280" if you are carful, but taking the 40 VMax out that far isn't advisable.

Ok,
The Hornady APP for 223 states general data as: Remington 700( i have a 700 VTR) the twist on data is 1:12 my VTR is 1:9 my other 223 is 1:12. THey state MAXIMUM COL 2.260(on general data). But, when i go to weight selection all data are different. 40 gr states 2.200 C.O.L, 60 gr states 2.250. And there is no difference in C.O.L according to powder type. It is really hard to get all type of powder at the moment. I have been able to get IMR 3031/CFE 223 and Hodgun h335.
I made load of 60 gr using those 3 powder. for the 40 gr i used H335 Between 21-22.5 gr seating COL to +-2.2 (i try to go a bit longer like 2.21/2.22/2.3) Because what i readed is that seeting longer(more close) to rifling is ''less dangerous'' than too deep. The only thing is that no manual say going too deep of certain amount begin to cause ''over pressure''... So really strange hehe. When you are new to reloading, it is, in my opinion, the ''danger zone'' that we should be aware. I try not to go close to maximum load for powder at the moment but some powder have a very little gap between''minimum and maximum load''. Wich is a bit risky not being sure what is worst between(seating too deep in brass or seating too far in rifling).
What i see is that more the bullet is light, more Hornady set it deep inside brass using less powder compare to heavier bullet. If i compare the same powder like H335 with 40gr and 60 gr bullet, the 40 gr minimum charge is 24.3gr c.o.l 2.200'' and velocity goes to 3300 fps.On 60 gr the minimum charge is 20.1 gr and the velocity is 2700fps @2.225'' C.o.l.. But there is no indication of''minimum or maximum acceptable C.O.L. I know that seating depth is a main factor for accuracy and can not be perfectly measured with c.o.l and need bullet compactor. But looking at c.o.l i see that sometimes some bullet are a tad shorter or longer or shorter than other wich gives me a gap when i am seating bullet. This causing me a headache cause i don't necessarely want to seat them one by one to get the perfect same result in c.o.l.I generally set it to what Hornady say EX: 2.200, i will go to 2.200 or 2.21,2.22,2.3) In lee book they states many shooters prefer seating 0.02-.03 away from rifling. But for the moment i don't have the tool to mesure my max ovl. So i expect that if some ammunition goes like 2.280'' i guess that it is safer to go a bit closer to rifling than seating to deep in brass. Do i am right?

 

[Varmintprecision]

The most effective way to address this issue in my opinion is to measure the max COL for the rifle and bullet you are using. This gives you the dimensions you are dealing with for that specific combination. See Note below.

There are a number of ways to accomplish this from using tools designed to measure the max COL to simply using a "dummy" round with only the very tip of case neck sized just enough to hold the bullet in place then chambering it to push the bullet into the case to the max COL dimension then measuring with a caliper.

I prefer the cheap, simple to use Frankfort Arsenal tool. If your handy, you can make your own for less than five dollars. All you need is a cleaning rod, two nylon spacers and two nylon screws available at Lowe's or Home Depot. You will also need to modify a jag, so it has a flat tip. Using a tool designed for this purpose in better in my opinion since it easier to measure several bullets in a lot.

Note: However, keep in mind that this measurement is subject to some slight variation due to differences in bullet ogive. The amount of variation is dependent on the quality and consistency of the bullets. Quality match grade bullets tend to have more uniform ogives than run of the mill hunting bullets.

So, it's a good idea to measure a few bullets from a lot and determine the approximate max and min. Depending the variation I find in a lot, I give myself an extra .005" margin of error to avoid jamming the bullet into the lands.

I load so at least one bullet diameter is seated in the neck and I'm at least 0.015" from the lands. This prevents a bullet from being jammed and sticking in the lands when you extract an unfired round - something you want to avoid in the field.

If i take an unprimed empty case and i put a bullet with an high seat, then i push the bolt till the bullet drop in brass, does it work? And if not, and i have to buy tool, do i have to measure the max col for every bullet i use?

 

[Rem06]

take a fired case that a new bullet goes into. lightly squeese,(pinch) the brass to hold the bullet a bit loose. use a sharpie and color the exposed bullet.
chamber the combination and when the bullet ojive hits the rifling it will push the bullet in to "max length" this will take several tries and a rough estimate of max length for your gun.
getting the tension just right is the key, too tight it will jam into the rifling and stick. too loose it will pull back out.
no tools needed

 

[Rem06]

when you just barely see rifling marks on the sharpie you are "just at the lands" no marks and you are off.

best to measure ojive " base to ojive" and jump @.010 or so in a hunting rifle as if you are in the field and a bullet sticks, you have a stuck bullet and powder dumped into the action when you open the chamber.

also base to tip needs to fit in the magazine and typically will not be long enough to jam.

bullet base to tip can vary 10 to 15 thou! bullet to bullet making ojive measurement more accurate as most tools will measure.

 

[Homerange]

OP, don't go beating yourself up on this and just apply KISS principles.
For most of us that run sporting rifles with mags max COAL is just mag length and above all other measurements write that down as it limits what we can load in a sporting rifle.

Next most important measurement pertaining to each and ever rifle we own and each and every projectile we wish to run is again a max COAL but determined by the free bore length to rifling start. Write this one down too for each projectile that you use as it's a crucial starting measurement for accuracy tuning.

The 2 COAL's above can mess with one another however for a hunting rifle max mag length always dominates what you can do with any projectile/load combination.

Ideally we like to have 1 bullet diameter in the case neck so to have a case that is robust in the field however with light projectiles this leads to a long and normally undesirable bullet jump before it engages with the rifling when instead most try to have a jump under 20 thou. With some projectiles 20 thou or less is just plain unachievable as light projectiles will be outta the neck so you have no option to jump them at max mag length and tune shorter for best accuracy from there.

Load books max loads should never be attempted initially as test guns are made to tight SAMMI standards whereas a mass produced sporter may not be. Instead start at 10% below max and work up until quite some experience and knowledge is gained.

 

[209jones]

This old fella in the attached vid takes his time and is perhaps a bit long winded, but, the old school method he uses, starts at the 22:00 mark, he explains how to use a cleaning rod to go about measuring the max OAL to the bullet point seated in the lands. Lots of vids around also on using a Hornady, Sinclair or similar tools. No matter which method or tool you use, take 1/2doz measurements, that way you are as sure as you can be that you have a reasonable measurement, if you get a +/- of .005 or less, that is really good. It's all about a gentle touch. And, you do have to do it for each different bullet weight and style and brand. And it may well be quite different than what the book says, and you may find the mag length won't let you seat it out that far anyway, on some guns. Measuring from the point is not as accurate as measuring from the ogive juncture, which properly requires a comparator tool, as point lengths can vary, and can drive you nuts if you try to seat that way.
Have a look at it, the first 22min are also related, if you don't understand why all the different lengths in the manuals, he does explain that.

 

[K22]

If i take an unprimed empty case and i put a bullet with an high seat, then i push the bolt till the bullet drop in brass, does it work? And if not, and i have to buy tool, do i have to measure the max col for every bullet i use?

I don't know about an unprimed case because I never used one in that way but try it - in the past when I used this method it was always a used case with about 1/8 of an inch of the neck size. That worked quite well for me.

No, you don't need to measure every bullet. I would just check a few when you change lot numbers. What you are trying to do is get an idea of how much ogive variation there is in that brand / style of bullet. Some benchrest shooters use bullet comparators and segregate by ogive. The average reloader doesn't need to do that in my opinion to obtain accurate reloads. Again, if you seat off the lands with some margin allowing for variations if bullet ogive, you won't jam the bullet into the lands. Also, I seat so a least one bullet diameter is seated in the neck of the case.

The only reason to buy a tool is to make it easier to measure several bullets in a lot but for you don't need to buy one.

 

[K22]

IThis old fella in the attached vid takes his time and is perhaps a bit long winded, but, the old school method he uses, starts at the 22:00 mark, he explains how to use a cleaning rod to go about measuring the max OAL to the bullet point seated in the lands. Lots of vids around also on using a Hornady, Sinclair or similar tools. No matter which method or tool you use, take 1/2doz measurements, that way you are as sure as you can be that you have a reasonable measurement, if you get a +/- of .005 or less, that is really good. It's all about a gentle touch. And, you do have to do it for each different bullet weight and style and brand. And it may well be quite different than what the book says, and you may find the mag length won't let you seat it out that far anyway, on some guns. Measuring from the point is not as accurate as measuring from the ogive juncture, which properly requires a comparator tool, as point lengths can vary, and can drive you nuts if you try to seat that way.
Have a look at it, the first 22min are also related, if you don't understand why all the different lengths in the manuals, he does explain that.

This guy in the video, gunblue490 knows what he is talking about in my opinion. He has a lot of professional experience.

I've watched almost all his videos. The ones on cleaning are controversial for sure but I now subscribe to them after extensive testing to valid his claims.

 

[dellet]

Just because the overall length is shorter, does not mean that there is more bullet inside the case.

The two bullets you mention, 40 and 60 grain VMax have a difference in length of .187”. The 40 grain is .686”, the 60 grain is .873”.

The COL of the 40 grain is 2.200”, the 60 grain is 2.225”

For the 60 grain to have the same amount of bullet in the case as the 40 grain it would need to be loaded to a length of 2.387”

For the 40 grain bullet to have the same amount of bullet in the case as the 60 grain, it would need to be loaded to a length of 2.038”

If you want to compare seated depth in the case. Bullet length + case length - COL = seated depth.

.686 + 1.750 - 2.200 = .236”

.873 + 1.750 - 2.225 = .373”

Often the COL listed by the manufacturer is determined by bullet shape. Example the 40 grain bullet may not be able to be set to the depth as the 60 grain because the ogive will be below the neck. Or if set to the same length there is not enough bearing surface of the bullet contacting the neck to safely hold it in.

Here you can find many bullet lengths to compare

JBM - Bullet Length List

www.jbmballistics.com

 

[rogina]

Hi again!
As new reloader there is still some things that i do not understant for Cartridge overal legth.
I am doing a try on 40grains v max bullet 223. My hornady App tell me i need 2.200 as C.O.L. The Hodgdon (not use 60 gr v max bullet) tell 2.280...It seems a large difference. How do this can happen? Only because they not use v-max bullet? Could i set the COL to 2.28 on V max or too much? I know that deeper in brass can be dangerous...Could someone ecplain me?
Thank you.
Mat

Find your own bullet seating depth.

 

[RegionRat]

This causing me a headache cause i don't necessarely want to seat them one by one to get the perfect same result in c.o.l.I generally set it to what Hornady say EX: 2.200, i will go to 2.200 or 2.21,2.22,2.3) In lee book they states many shooters prefer seating 0.02-.03 away from rifling. But for the moment i don't have the tool to mesure my max ovl. So i expect that if some ammunition goes like 2.280'' i guess that it is safer to go a bit closer to rifling than seating to deep in brass. Do i am right?

You are over thinking this as a beginner.

My advice to start you out, is to seat as your manual shows to begin with, in your Hornady 40 VMax for example pick that 2.200" you mentioned or pick the standard magazine length of 2.250" and get started. The H335 and CFE223 are easy to measure due to the fine grain size.

You can go a long way with the learning curve before you worry about seating depth going out so far that you have less than a bullet diameter of grip. That 2.280" is very long for the 40 VMax. You will find a depth that makes you happy without having to seat it out that far.

You will have plenty of time with the Hornady 40 VMax at magazine length to start out and lots of work to learn to get your brass prep and charge weights tuned before you need to worry about trying to seat it out that far. Till you have the tools, focus on the first things first and think about getting with somebody with experience.

If at all possible, try to get a mentor who is local to you. Ask around at the local rifle clubs.

Bonne Chance!

 

[Straightshooter1]

Ok,
The Hornady APP for 223 states general data as: Remington 700( i have a 700 VTR) the twist on data is 1:12 my VTR is 1:9 my other 223 is 1:12. THey state MAXIMUM COL 2.260(on general data). But, when i go to weight selection all data are different. 40 gr states 2.200 C.O.L, 60 gr states 2.250. And there is no difference in C.O.L according to powder type. It is really hard to get all type of powder at the moment. I have been able to get IMR 3031/CFE 223 and Hodgun h335.
I made load of 60 gr using those 3 powder. for the 40 gr i used H335 Between 21-22.5 gr seating COL to +-2.2 (i try to go a bit longer like 2.21/2.22/2.3) Because what i readed is that seeting longer(more close) to rifling is ''less dangerous'' than too deep. The only thing is that no manual say going too deep of certain amount begin to cause ''over pressure''... So really strange hehe. When you are new to reloading, it is, in my opinion, the ''danger zone'' that we should be aware. I try not to go close to maximum load for powder at the moment but some powder have a very little gap between''minimum and maximum load''. Wich is a bit risky not being sure what is worst between(seating too deep in brass or seating too far in rifling).
What i see is that more the bullet is light, more Hornady set it deep inside brass using less powder compare to heavier bullet. If i compare the same powder like H335 with 40gr and 60 gr bullet, the 40 gr minimum charge is 24.3gr c.o.l 2.200'' and velocity goes to 3300 fps.On 60 gr the minimum charge is 20.1 gr and the velocity is 2700fps @2.225'' C.o.l.. But there is no indication of''minimum or maximum acceptable C.O.L. I know that seating depth is a main factor for accuracy and can not be perfectly measured with c.o.l and need bullet compactor. But looking at c.o.l i see that sometimes some bullet are a tad shorter or longer or shorter than other wich gives me a gap when i am seating bullet. This causing me a headache cause i don't necessarely want to seat them one by one to get the perfect same result in c.o.l.I generally set it to what Hornady say EX: 2.200, i will go to 2.200 or 2.21,2.22,2.3) In lee book they states many shooters prefer seating 0.02-.03 away from rifling. But for the moment i don't have the tool to mesure my max ovl. So i expect that if some ammunition goes like 2.280'' i guess that it is safer to go a bit closer to rifling than seating to deep in brass. Do i am right?

dellet has explained your issue about COAL (cartridge over all length) very well. If you understand it, then you should understand that two different bullets with very different COAL's can have the same jump to the lands/rifling because they have the same CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) measurement.

As mentioned in previous posts, you can measure how far to the lands my using a dummy case that holds one of your bullets and closing the bolt on it until it touches. Then you will know the "maximum" COAL measurement for that bullet at that time. But you'll need a comparator tool to measure the CBTO as you
won't know what that measurement without it. Once you get that measurement, that measurement will be the same for all you're bullets regardless of the bullet's OAL and you can then have a good ideas where to start various bullet's seating by that CBTO regardless of COAL.

A comparator tool is an essential tool to reloading for this reason.

As RegionRat suggested, It's a very good idea if you can find someone near you mentor you with the reloading process as that can get you off to a faster start to understand the various reloading issues.

 

[6bra1k]

Hi again!
As new reloader there is still some things that i do not understant for Cartridge overal legth.
I am doing a try on 40grains v max bullet 223. My hornady App tell me i need 2.200 as C.O.L. The Hodgdon (not use 60 gr v max bullet) tell 2.280...It seems a large difference. How do this can happen? Only because they not use v-max bullet? Could i set the COL to 2.28 on V max or too much? I know that deeper in brass can be dangerous...Could someone ecplain me?
Thank you.
Mat

while basic reloading is a simple case of following a given set of instructions, there are no BIBLES in this sport.
the book writer likely did not work up a load using YOUR rifle, so results will vary.
load data is a single set of data, you change any part, you change the results. it is almost impossible to compare two different loads from different sources. just too many variables. even if the same name of powder is used it is likely a different LOT, different cases means different case volume, different bbl means different results.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Different bullet weights and brands of bullets have different shapes. Two often discussed are tangent and secant ogive. Bullet ogive is the curve of a bullets forward section, thus the tangent or secant ogive. This spot is approximate to where the bullet will first contact the rifling and also be approximately where the bullet will contact the comparator, if you are using one. Since different bullets(and bullets from the same lot) have varied shapes AND barrels have varied chambers, each combination need to be accounted for in the reloading activity. Until you have developed or practiced a method to FIND max (bullet touches lands), carefully follow load data for the specific bullet you are loading.

 

[Varmintprecision]

Okay,
Thank you for all the answers. I may be scattering myself too quickly in my essays. What worries me most is making a mistake that could cause problems. So if I rely on the book as a basis, if I use the C.O.L indicated and stay within the guidelines for the powders there should be no problems. In your experience what are the most important things to avoid? EX: To much crimp,Seating too deep in case etc?
Thanks and i really appreciate your answers and the time you spend.

 

[RegionRat]

There is an old saying... it prevents posts by folks like me from writing a huge tutorial here... it goes something like don't try to boil the ocean.... There isn't a short list of important things in reloading as a beginner, there is a lot to manage and it isn't for folks with a short attention span. Taken in with the right attitude and in an organized manner from a text book, it can still be learned safely.

Skip the crimp worries for now. Unless you are belling the case mouth open, your neck tension as a beginner should have plenty of margin for keeping the bullet in place for everything from a break action to a machine gun. In other words, don't ask for trouble with over crimping cause it will ruin accuracy when taken too far. Your neck tension should be roughly 0.002" - 0.003" in terms of diameter interference. Wait till you learn the ropes before experimenting with very light or very heavy neck tension.

The Hornady 40 VMax you are asking about is easy to live with cause it has a small boat tail. Chamfer your necks and you should not have to struggle to seat them. Not belling the mouth means you won't need to un-do the belling. This isn't the same as pistol loading.

Like anything else here, as a beginner you should stick to the middle ground and not explore very deep or very long seating depths. That old saying over the face of The Parthenon about The Golden Mean has been around for thousands of years and is good advice to beginning reloaders. Stay on the well traveled roads till you learn to explore safely.

Don't rush to the maximums or minimums till you learn what you are doing, that applies to charges, bullet weights, seating depths, etc.

Get a local mentor, you will learn far faster and with less waste.