BUYER BEWARE!

[BOLTED]

I'm hoping a message like this could be posted in the daily bulletin or somewhere that everyone can see it.

I have come across several listings in other gun classifieds websites that have some VERY good deals on rifles, pistols, scopes etc... There are individuals, and an actual ring of people that are posting items for sale that you will never receive if you send a money order. I was almost burned by one of these people on a well known and popular website. You can't trust feedback alone anymore unfortunately. I was sent a phony drivers license and a falsified FFL document, and if I didn't check into it, I would have lost $2,000. The thieves are getting very smart, and we need to be smarter.

You need to double check everything! Call the FFL to make sure they are legit. Check the FFL address and the drivers license address, and get a phone number if you can. Google is a good tool for this. If you have any doubt at all, DON'T buy it. Contact the ATF if you seriously think it may be a scam. Usually, the item for sale is under priced, which is the first red flag, and the seller does not have good knowledge of the technical aspects of it. Ask specific questions about anything you are thinking about purchasing.

I have never had any trouble with anyone on this website, and I like the trust and friendships that are built here. Unfortunately some bad apples are ruining the trust in the gun community, and I'm sad to know that this is happening. Be a smart shopper, don't assume everyone is trustworthy, but be courteous when asking questions. No one likes to be accused of something. As a seller, don't be offended if potential buyers are asking you to go the extra mile to prove you are legit. As an FFL, be aware that if you give out a copy of your FFL, it could be tampered with or altered. A push for something other than just a plain piece of paper that can't be falsified as an FFL copy may be worth your while. Call your local ATF or congress person to help get this started.

Best of luck to everyone,

Arvin

 

[nakneker]

Nice heads up, thanks!!

 

[mikecockcroft]

Thanks. I have a friend who owns a large gun store and Internet sales business. He has told me about the elaborate schemes used to cheat them. Really interesting how they pull off credit card fraud and manipulate the shippers to steal merchandise.
One question about selling firearms on the Internet that don't belong to the seller. When someone advertises a rifle that does not belong to them then you agree to buy it and you pay the seller and it is shipped to your ffl holder, is that legal ?? Seems as though the seller should be an ffl holder to sell a rifle that doesn't belong to them. I see that happening regularly. I guess proving "ownership" would just be a matter of saying ole joe sold it to me before I sold it.

 

[hogpatrol]

I recently have noticed a lot of newbies with no feedback, selling on this site. Caveat Emptor.

 

[Lapua40X]

Good advice all the way around. I've made it a habit to spend some time on the phone, more than once if possible, to talk about his/her deal and discuss shooting in general. Most of the time a scam artist isn't knowledgeable about shooting - even though he/she may have done some research on the item they're selling - and red flags start to wave. I also use COD services with UPS. I post the check but payment doesn't move until the package gets to my end. It's not foolproof but it's better than the "let's trust each other" method.

 

[SS427]

I like to Google map an address before sending money for an item. Turn on satellite view and see if it is a place of business or a respectable looking home. If there is a toilet in the front yard and 12 broken down cars in the back yard, flags are raised.

This is also why I won't pay new prices for items listed on any website by a private seller. I will only pay up to 80% of new because I know at some point I'm going to get ripped off again. That 20% discount is my way of making sure in the long run I at least break even on all deals. Not fair to the honest people I know, but it is the only way I can stay ahead of the game. As you can see I don't buy and sell much.

 

[ballison]

Here's a trick I've learned that helped me spot a scammer more than once. If there are pics with a questionable listing, right click on the image, then select "search Google for image". Often, Google will match the pic with a listing that is either from another site or VERY old.
Also, if it's an item with a s/n, ask for it then call the mfg and verify that it is at least a legitimate number.

 

[rkittine]

I have had two people try to scam me on high ticket item firearms. Both posted pictures that they took off another site (wish that some of the sites would have either auto embedded logos or be set to not allow right clicking and copying of photos off their site) Both also had almost no knowledge about what they were supposedly selling and one was supposed to be within 25 miles of me, but refused to allow me to come see what it was he was selling.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have had at least two guys here send me merchandise before they got my payment. I had one guy with only 1 post on another site sell me a $3,000 gun, but he gave me the name of the club he shoots at, I called the club and got excellent feed back on the guy and they actually took the gun, inspected it and then sent it to me while holding my payment for the seller.

Another guy offered me a NIB gun for $3,100 when I saw at least 3 or 4 Slightly used ones on other sites for $3,600 or more. Red Flag and also a red flag that the same pictures where on two sites with two different user names, but a few phone calls and I determined that the guy was legit and I am glad that I did as I love the gun I bought from him, with the under market price.

Totally agree with regard to Buyer Beware. I prefer to see what I am buying, but that seldom works out and I also know that now that PayPal is so anti gun transaction, that using their held money program is not so easy any more.

Few forums have the rating system like the one that exists here. I do really like that.

Good Luck to all Buyers and Sellers - Bob

 

[BOLTED]

I'm glad to hear that people are aware, and are being cautious in their dealings. Good Ideas or things that help are going to be good for people to hear. The more we talk about the fact that we are very aware of it here, and that we absolutely will not tolerate it, may help make them a bit nervous of trying it out on this site.

DO NOT give out your full ship to address until you are completely sure the deal is legit. If you are having things shipped to your home, you better make damn sure you keep your items secured, and always be ready to legally protect your property and loved ones. Every deal you make lets someone know you just got more goodies. Face to face deals should always be made away from home in a public place, preferably one with surveillance cameras around. Plan on doing the deal discreetly(non descriptive boxes if possible) if in public. Folks get a little nervous when they see a rifle and some powder being transferred by two dudes dressed in camo in the back of a couple of pickup trucks.

Stay safe,

Arvin

 

[/VH]

I'm hoping a message like this could be posted in the daily bulletin or somewhere that everyone can see it.

I have come across several listings in other gun classifieds websites that have some VERY good deals on rifles, pistols, scopes etc... There are individuals, and an actual ring of people that are posting items for sale that you will never receive if you send a money order. I was almost burned by one of these people on a well known and popular website. You can't trust feedback alone anymore unfortunately. I was sent a phony drivers license and a falsified FFL document, and if I didn't check into it, I would have lost $2,000. The thieves are getting very smart, and we need to be smarter.

You need to double check everything! Call the FFL to make sure they are legit. Check the FFL address and the drivers license address, and get a phone number if you can. Google is a good tool for this. If you have any doubt at all, DON'T buy it. Contact the ATF if you seriously think it may be a scam. Usually, the item for sale is under priced, which is the first red flag, and the seller does not have good knowledge of the technical aspects of it. Ask specific questions about anything you are thinking about purchasing.

I have never had any trouble with anyone on this website, and I like the trust and friendships that are built here. Unfortunately some bad apples are ruining the trust in the gun community, and I'm sad to know that this is happening. Be a smart shopper, don't assume everyone is trustworthy, but be courteous when asking questions. No one likes to be accused of something. As a seller, don't be offended if potential buyers are asking you to go the extra mile to prove you are legit. As an FFL, be aware that if you give out a copy of your FFL, it could be tampered with or altered. A push for something other than just a plain piece of paper that can't be falsified as an FFL copy may be worth your while. Call your local ATF or congress person to help get this started.

Best of luck to everyone,

Arvin

Arvin,

Thanks for the heads up.

In regard to your suggestion of calling your local ATF or congress person; I'm thinking it might be beneficial for some gun owners, dealers and others involved to put a little thought into just what to ask the ATF or congress to do, instead of relying on those government entities to come up with "something other...".

Brian Turnbull

 

[ARshuter]

There is a web site that can be used to verify a FFL. I can't remember it off the top of my head but I'm sure you can find it through Gunbroker or maybe some one on here knows it.

 

[smoooth]

Thanks for the heads up, I have noticed quite a few possible scams on a certain Arms site with all the red flags you all describe. Unfortunately, the powers that be refuse to target and prosecute the criminals and scammers.

As to the feedback system on this forum, I am curious how many actually use it with the new site? Feedback was easy to find and use on the old site but not so much now. I leave feedback for all my transactions but with the new site hardly any have left feedback for me. Never had an issue dealing with anyone on here, but still think it is crappy that feedback has not been reciprocated, again, probably because it's not easy to find or see anymore.

 

[BOLTED]

Your right Brian, we want our suggestions to be taken into account. The ATF gentleman that I talked to was thinking along the lines of the watermarks and other anti counterfeiting properties we have in our money and on our drivers license. A small fee could be charged by the FFL if someone wants a copy. Unfortunately, a scanned or copied FFL would not really show the proof marks well. We don't want more regulation, just better ways of proof to prevent an unlawful sale or purchase. Brian is on the right track with the good guys figuring out better ways of not being taken by the bad guys. I don't think it would be in our best interest to just tell the government we have a problem, and to say "just go ahead and fix it for us".

Get your gears turning guys and gals. Like I said, it's up to us to watch our own backs. Things are changing for the better and for the worse as the internet grows, and the bad guys know that too. Lets outsmart them at their own game.

Post your ideas, and of course... Keep them legal.

 

[BOLTED]

FFL EZ CHECK is the place to check on the info written up on an FFL. Let me know if this works or not for you.

 

[mac86951]

Again thanks for the heads up. I will agree that I respect the membership here and have had several meet me, or deliver goods, and I hope we can continue the high level of trust here.

-Mac

 

[/VH]

Arvin,

I'm not all that sure that the ATF is really the right place to address the issue. It seems to me that scamming folks is mostly illegal already (unless you're part of the government or running for office) and this might be more of a general law enforcement issue anyway but with 'interstate' and 'Internet' involved, I expect jurisdiction might have to be determined on a case by case basis. Maybe we oughta ask Al Gore who to call since he invented it. I spect it won't be long before the Federales set up a new and 'out in the open' Internet police agency for us to fund anyway.

Brian

 

[Lapua40X]

There is a web site that can be used to verify a FFL. I can't remember it off the top of my head but I'm sure you can find it through Gunbroker or maybe some one on here knows it.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/listing-federal-firearms-licensees-ffls-2016

 

[dragman]

I got taken for $1500 on a deal one time. Also got an FFL it was real but just changed a couple things on the expiration and address. I found it too be fake after I lost the money and it was fake so I called the ATF and they didn't care at all. Nor did the postal inspectors since it was a money order sent. No one has the balls to hunt down and charge these criminals they just are content to let them get away with it.
Long story short I got my money back the old fashion way with lots of homework on my end. and then I had to make it very clear that if I didn't get my money back it would be a real bad decision for them. even after I got the funds back 6 months later I gave the authorities the routing number for the bank check and all and nothing was done.

 

[LoganDon]

I'm hoping a message like this could be posted in the daily bulletin or somewhere that everyone can see it.

I have come across several listings in other gun classifieds websites that have some VERY good deals on rifles, pistols, scopes etc... There are individuals, and an actual ring of people that are posting items for sale that you will never receive if you send a money order. I was almost burned by one of these people on a well known and popular website. You can't trust feedback alone anymore unfortunately. I was sent a phony drivers license and a falsified FFL document, and if I didn't check into it, I would have lost $2,000. The thieves are getting very smart, and we need to be smarter.

You need to double check everything! Call the FFL to make sure they are legit. Check the FFL address and the drivers license address, and get a phone number if you can. Google is a good tool for this. If you have any doubt at all, DON'T buy it. Contact the ATF if you seriously think it may be a scam. Usually, the item for sale is under priced, which is the first red flag, and the seller does not have good knowledge of the technical aspects of it. Ask specific questions about anything you are thinking about purchasing.

I have never had any trouble with anyone on this website, and I like the trust and friendships that are built here. Unfortunately some bad apples are ruining the trust in the gun community, and I'm sad to know that this is happening. Be a smart shopper, don't assume everyone is trustworthy, but be courteous when asking questions. No one likes to be accused of something. As a seller, don't be offended if potential buyers are asking you to go the extra mile to prove you are legit. As an FFL, be aware that if you give out a copy of your FFL, it could be tampered with or altered. A push for something other than just a plain piece of paper that can't be falsified as an FFL copy may be worth your while. Call your local ATF or congress person to help get this started.

Best of luck to everyone,

Arvin

I just saw two top of the line Leupold Mark 4 scopes for sale on a salt lake classified, both were priced at $150 each. One a 3.5x10, the other a 4
5x14. Seller said they were unused and he had received them as a gift. I talked with him and was uncomfortable. Evidentually another person bought both as they were advertised the next day by another person for $650 each, which was quickly lowered to $500 each. Pictures showed both scopes having the same serial number - all of my Leupolds have different serial numbers. Looks like a clever knock-off and I know someone will be fooled by these fakes.

 

[Rpbump]

I have tried to PM two different sellers of shadetree & fairley upper rests and have not seen an SPF on the items or recieved a reply. Sometimes you wonder if the proposed sale is above board.

Rpbump