bushing damage-what happen?

[deadlyswift]

I'm posting a pic of one of my 308 lapua necks. Using a .336 neck bushing in a Redding type s neck sizing die, and Fl die. I have used this Redding bushing to size somewhere around 1500+ times. All of a sudden this is what I got when I sized my necks? I have a new bushing and I'm back at it with sizing my brass. So that much has been fixed. However it just bugs me as to what happen to this bushing. I would prefer that I not let this happen again. I feel that I done something wrong in my reloading, but can't figure out what I done wrong to have damaged the bushing. This time things worked out. I have some time before my next match so I was able to get another bushing and get things back on track to be ready. I might not be so lucky the next time. So I'm trying to figure out what caused this. I looked at the bushing with my bore scope and right where the neck enters the bushing there seems to be small burrs that are cutting into the brass. Obiviously the burrs were not there in the past so what could I possibly done in my sizing to have caused the burrs, or damage to occur? I don't want something like this to happen and only have a few days to get ready for a match so I would like to try and figure out what happen to cause this. Any Idea's or thoughts for me to look at or watch for would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mark

 

[rocketron]

what ever caused it sure did make uniform marks.......are they all the way around or just areas ?

Ron

 

[bozo699]

Mark,
Have you been sizing any nickel brass? carbon maybe? Its so uniform!
Wayne.

 

[stgw77]

Hi Mark,
had the same problem you have now. It was not problem at all anyway. Are you annealing your brass ( I see red color inside of the necks)? Let me explain.
I also use Redding bushing dies for my 6,5X47 Lapua. I resized many rounds whitout any problems, and when I started annealing my cases I got as a result that like you did now. I over - annealed brass, which became too soft (very soft !) at necks, and with my titan bushings (not lubricated) I got schratches like you did. "Burrs" in the surface of my bushing was only metal taking from necks of my brass. So I cleaned bushing (gently) with olfa - cutter, removing that metal. I than tried to resize (with the same bushing) new, virgin Lapua case - and burrs were gone ! Bushing was not destroyed while this lesson. Only few cases were. But for sure was a lesson !
Hope this help,

Klemen

 

[CJ6]

Looks like it was fired in a chamber with a fluted neck reminscent of HK (fully fluted)rifles

 

[Nomo4me]

I believe your bushing is fine - just has some brass from unlubed case necks deposited inside it. I did this to mine and removed the brass from inside the bushing by carefully scraping it out with an exacto knife blade. They are made from quite-soft steel and won't scratch the bushing, though I'd be careful with the blade tip.

 

[deadlyswift]

Stgw77,
That may just be the problem. I have annealed this brass twice. I started annealing this brass after the first 3 firings. I annealed the brass again at 6 firing. Presently the brass has 7 firings on them. Like a rookie I have been annealing without tempilag. I use a sincliar case holder and spin the cases with a drill. Holding the neck to the point of the shoulder/neck junction in the flame until the entire neck turns blue. I done this in a dark room with the door cracked open just enough to let in enough light from the hall way. So without the use of any tempilag and even tho I didn't let the case glow red, I could have over annealed without knowing. Guess I'll learn the lesson too! (GET SOME TEMPILAG) ;D

Now with that said.... Maybe I over annealed or not? Without the use of tempilag obvisously I don't know what temp. my necks are getting to. With them just turning blue and not red. I would think that I was not over annealing, but like I said I can't be sure because I didn't use any tempilag. Here is the thing, and why I am not completely convinced that my necks got too soft. Last night I ran the rest of the brass through a new bushing that was annealed the same as the 5 that looked like this. They do not have a scracth on them like in the past. What do yall think? It is very interesting how uniformed the cuts are in the brass. Like a good friend told me when showing him the necks before posting here. It almost looks like it was machined that way. The necks do look like this all the way around, and the cuts are as uniformed all the way around the neck the same way. Guess I could look for a positive here and know that my cases are going into my dies very straight ;D
Thanks
Mark

 

[stgw77]

Hi Mark,
I annealed my cases the same way you did. Whitout Tempilag. I found by myself that annealing by color difference of neck (using bushing style dies) did not gave me valid informations. I mean, just think: necks that are many times sized using bushing are becomming brighter than case shoulder. So when annealing, neck still had gold color, while shoulder was allready blue / red ???!
I am almost sure that cases from the same batch you annealed do not have schratches becouse you are using now new bushing, which is still whitout metal deposits, rubbing from the brass.
So, I cleaned my bushing gently with knife, and sized the rest of cases whitout problems and scratches. Becouse I like to experimet ;D I loaded and fired some of them (as foulers) and resized them many times again and again - got them harder (whitout annealing), and never got schratches back.
I then used some .357 MAG cases, annealed them long on hot flame and sized them with LEE full length sizing die. Guess what, got identical schratches
You need just to clean your old bushing, I thing it is fine.
And yes, I just meant to say, you probably have very concetric chamber, Redding die and low runout on your ammo like I do ;D
Hope this helps,
Klemen

 

[deadlyswift]

Hi Mark,
I annealed my cases the same way you did. Whitout Tempilag. I found by myself that annealing by color difference of neck (using bushing style dies) did not gave me valid informations. I mean, just think: necks that are many times sized using bushing are becomming brighter than case shoulder. So when annealing, neck still had gold color, while shoulder was allready blue / red ???!
I am almost sure that cases from the same batch you annealed do not have schratches becouse you are using now new bushing, which is still whitout metal deposits, rubbing from the brass.
So, I cleaned my bushing gently with knife, and sized the rest of cases whitout problems and scratches. Becouse I like to experimet ;D I loaded and fired some of them (as foulers) and resized them many times again and again - got them harder (whitout annealing), and never got schratches back.
I then used some .357 MAG cases, annealed them long on hot flame and sized them with LEE full length sizing die. Guess what, got identical schratches
You need just to clean your old bushing, I thing it is fine.
And yes, I just meant to say, you probably have very concetric chamber, Redding die and low runout on your ammo like I do ;D
Hope this helps,
Klemen

Klemen,
Thanks for the info! I think you are probably right! I'll give my bushing a cleaning, and see what happens. I guess it seems that there is another lesson learn! I'm going to defineitly get some Tempilag to anneal with in the furture! Thanks for your post! I too just get caught up in tinkering with things. So if I may ask what temp, TEMPILAG would you suggest for 308 cases? 450, 500, 650, 800?? Guess I need to read up on annealing a little more. I'm not dead set on that I need to anneal my cases, but like I said I just love to try new things and see for myself if it helps. So What are some of you guy's using as far as tempilag? (temp wise)
Thanks
Mark

 

[LHSmith]

deadly----Well, I got the same neck scoring you posted. Using a steel bushing on 6PPC brass, after annealing. Also, I checked my 30 BR brass , just annealed and sized (used a TiN bushing)... no score marks. The steel bushing cleaned with a q-tip and solvent. The TiN bushing was loaded with black specs. I believe carbon particles from the torch are the cause, and since I lube the necks for steel bushings, the lube causes the carbon to collect in the bushing. The TiN bushing with no lube just pushes the carbon back and forth.
I don't believe you overheated the necks, if anything you didn't apply enough heat. The brass should look like factory Lapua----blue tint about 1/3 down case. I am puzzled how you see "blue" necks in a darkened room. In a darkroom I look for the neck to BEGIN to glow, this technique yields the same results as when I anneal in daylight and watch for the blue ring to travel up 1/3rd the case. I polish the case first so that the discoloration is plainly visible. Also I spin the cases ~ 60 rpm in a case lathe,where the shell holder acts like a heat sink protecting the case head.....it takes twice as much time in the flame to get that blue ring to migrate up to the web part of the brass.
I am using a hand held propane torch, holding 90* to the neck, holding the tip of the flame ( ~3-4") at the middle of the neck.

 

[tenring]

I anneal with the shell in a case holder and run by a cordless drill, over a propane bottle, one light only behind me, with no water dipping. When the neck only just starts to turn red, I drop it in a pan. After you have annealled many necks this way, you can count the revolutions it turns in the flame. Flame should not go below the neck, and be at 90 degrees from the shell. I Don't use tempilaq, but am ordering some of the 750 degree stuff. Stay away from templistick. Also, bushings should always be inserted in the die with the bevelled side down. Use a small loop to see the bevel.

 

[LHSmith]

As a follow-up to the "fluted neck" problem, I'm also thinking that my recent change to lighter neck tension on my 6 PPC case also contributed. Perhaps the larger bushing ID permits the contaminates (carbon and sizing lube) to more easily get caught between the neck and bushing. The 30BR cases (which appear normal), despite having a dirtier appearance in the bushing, were sized with more moderate tension ( and a TiN bushing)

 

[deadlyswift]

LHSMITH,
Thanks for the comments. I do anneal in a dark room with the door crack enough to let in enough light to move around and not tip anything over or trip over my own feet. Before I anneal I will tumble my brass for about a hour some times more if I get busy with something else. More less just enough tumbling to clean carbon off. When I started annealing I practiced with some of my old Win brass to get the hang of things. I am holding the necks in the flame for 8 sec. This is where I will see the neck turn a faint blue. If I hold the necks in the flame for about 12 sec it will then glow a dull red. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is the right way and your way is wrong. Just how I have done things so far.

I can see how the carbon build up could cause this. After all carbon is just as big of a killer in barrels as copper so yes I can see how carbon can build in a steel bushing as well. The bushing that this happen with is a steel bushing. The new bushing is Tin. I'll have to try some solvent in my steel bushing and see it that helps. At the least now I have some kind of idea and direction to look into what has caused this. Could be that I need to pay just as much attention to my loading equipment as I do my barrels, and cleaning dies etc. up after every use.
Thanks
Mark

 

[jo191145]

FWIW I use an old bore brush with 0000 steel wool wrapped around it. Chuck it in a press or hand drill and run the bushing on in. Removes brass buildup quite fast.

 

[bozo699]

FWIW I use an old bore brush with 0000 steel wool wrapped around it. Chuck it in a press or hand drill and run the bushing on in. Removes brass buildup quite fast.

Thats a good idea,I am not having any trouble yet but I think I will give this a try to prevent ant future problems.
Wayne.

 

[jo191145]

OK Wayne, I quess I should throw in a little warning ;D Sometimes too much of a good thing is not good.

Bushings are just like rifle bores. Get em too smooth and your gonna get lots of trouble.
I have polished bushings like mirrors inside. Not Good. Had to rough em back up to get them functioning again.

 

[Silverfox]

That looks very much like what was happening to my annealed casings for both my .17 Remington and one of my .204 Rugers when using my TiN bushings. I had NEVER had that problem before I started to anneal my casings. Instead of trying to clean them up, I sent them into Redding and they sent out new bushings to me.

If this happens again, I might try to clean them myself. One thing Redding recommends you do is to lube the necks on your casing even with the TiN bushings. I would also recommend lightly chamfering and deburring the necks BEFORE neck sizing them.