Bullets Getting Scratched Between Ogive & Case Mouth

[Coyotefurharvester]

Have you tried a standard seating die to see if it(sleeveless) leaves marks? The ring above the scratches is definitely from rough edge. Does the competition seater produce less run out?

 

[CarlGeorge]

I haven't checked press alignment. How does one do that?

Based on the above info I checked case runout. (I placed the indicator on the neck - I presume that's where it should be measured - I'm new to this.)

Interesting results:

• Necked-up-but-unfired Lapua: Typically .008"-.010" of runout. (This is the scenario that has, so far, produced the most number of scratched bullets.)
• Once-fired-and-sized Lapua: .003"-.004" of runout
• Unfired Norma .284 Win Brass (i.e. no necking up done): .003" +/-

 

[Mulligan]

I haven't checked press alignment. How does one do that?


Interesting results:

• Necked-up-but-unfired Lapua: Typically .008"-.010" of runout. (This is the scenario that has, so far, produced the most number of scratched bullets.)
• Once-fired-and-sized Lapua: .003"-.004" of runout
• Unfired Norma .284 Win Brass (i.e. no necking up done): .003" +/-

I think Todd @WillyTP nailed it.
CW

 

[ngb1787]

You may be having spring back because your neck bushing is too small. I would go up a size or two with you neck bushing and see if that works,

 

[T-shooter]

Does the seating stem go down to that area on the bullet? I have the same seater and use it on .308's. The step is so small that it contacts the bullets about 1/4" from the tip. I did polish it out inside and gave the bottom sharp edge a slight radius. I use it on some longer bullets and seen no need to go to the VLD stem. I did check if the bullet tips contacted the inside which they don't. These is 2 of the longer profile bullets I use with it.

These bullets shows the contact point of the stem (the scuff on the bottom one). These scratches are from using HBN and pulling the bullets back out of the case, nothing to do with seating.

 

[gman47564]

Im sure its not but this isnt a 6.5x284 seater die is it?

 

[CarlGeorge]

The seating stem does not touch the bullet where the scratches are showing up.

The seating sleeve is marked ".284 Win".

 

[Uncle Ed]

If I understand your problem correctly you are expanding the necks with an expander die and then sizing with a bushing die.

The expander die does not support the case body and this can induce neck runout.

You then resize the case with a bushing die and the bushing floats, the bushing can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing. Meaning you are hoping a floating bushing will straighten the case neck and then be in alignment with the case body.

I would use a non-bushing full length die that would hold the case body and case neck in perfect concentric alignment.

Bottom line, there is nothing in your expanding and sizing operations holding the case body in alignment with the case neck.

Below a simple Lee full length die would expand the neck and then size the case with the case body and neck in concentric alignment. Don't shoot the messenger for telling you to size Lapua brass in a Lee die but it looks like your problem is an alignment problem with a floating bushing,

 

[CarlGeorge]

Thanks all for your responses. I greatly appreciate it. My level of learning I've gotten out of this thread has been huge.

For now I'm going to pursue the plan to "shoot out" the bullet scratching that is happening....meaning....I'm figuring the scratches are a result of case runout, the greatest case runout is being introduced by the initial neck-up process (necking up from 6.5mm to 7mm), but that case runout gets straightened out with subsequent firings.

The case runout data I posted in Reply #23 shows this (or at least is an indicator that's the issue). Those unfired cases went through a significant amount of force - in a expanding mandrel die that left the case unsupported. I did each case in a two-step process: I first put a .270 mandrel through them, then the .284. I remember thinking "Holy cow it's taking a lot of force to get this done."

On those same cases (Lapua) after they've been fired the case runout is greatly reduced. Those, too, are being expanded after being sized, but just by a couple of thou. So those fired-and-sized cases aren't being put under nearly as much expander pressure as they were when they were unfired. So I have at least a little data (I would say the jury is still out, though) that my sizing and expanding operation for cases that have already been fired is OK.

The fact I'm getting little - if any - scratching on either 1/ fired Lapua or 2/ fired or unfired Norma conveys to me the seating die I think is OK.

I'll get more rounds downrange and more results from seating bullets in cases that have been fired and report back on how things go.

Thank you again!

CG

 

[liseo]

I believe you have runout problems in these brass.

 

[Jarhead6870]

When I necked up 6.5x284 brass, I also used two mandrels but did not have any issues with runout. I will say though, I used plenty of lube (Imperial sizing wax) inside the case necks and on the mandrel when doing so and would clean the mandrel and re-wax every 5-7 cases. It took a while but in the end, everything came out as it should.

 

[boiler_house7]

Well just my two cents. Unless we go over your regiment its really hard to truly troubleshoot your issues i'm a thinken. I personally feel The neck are distorted on expanding and or scratched from the expander mandrell. If your not using a carbide expander mandrell I have had to polish them steel mandrells ever so often to get the brass build up out of em ever 30-40 or so even well lubed or it would starts scratching necks. Not sure your expanding set up. I use the Sinclair with carbide expander mandrells and lube the necks as well on expanding now. 2nd I run all the brass back through the neck bushing die to somewhat straighten the necks back out if some runout was induced on expanding and or set neck tension. You should not have issues I would think with this regiment so far if its not a die issue. Next I would look at the chamfer on inside of neck. It'll scratch the bullets just like you got if not chamfered well which im sure your know and make sure you chamfer the outside as well, could possibly push the case to one side causing bullet runout. I don't run redding seating dies but I would question how well the seater drift is fitting the bullet. It could be causing the bullet possibly to cock when seating especially with a lotta neck tension. Check and see where your bushing size is sizing necks versus loaded round OD. My guess is your expander mandrell is scratching necks and our a bit of CHAMFER on necks gonna fix your wagon. Hope some of this helps. Bill

 

[CarlGeorge]

^^^ Thanks a lot.

While issues with chamfer are not causing the scratches in the photo per se (the scratched portion in the photo never enters the neck) I think you're raising good points that if there are issues with the chamfer it could cause bullet seating forces that force bullet runout. At least that's how I'm interpreting part of what you say above. I'll look into it.

I'm using 21st Century expander mandrel die body and titantium nitride mandrels. I'm not totally sure, but I believe I used Hornady Unique case lube when I necked up the brass. If that's what I did I'm sure I didn't use very much - because that's been my habit for sizing with Unique in general. In all likelihood I rubbed my finger over the mouth of the case to get a little on, counting on the mandrel to drag the lube inside the neck. In hindsight I'm guessing I should have used more than I did. (Like I said previously, I remember thinking "Holy cow I've gotta push hard to get this mandrel in!". With that statement I'm referring to mandrel use during the neck-up process. On subsequent sizings of fired cases I'm also using that mandrel for expansion, but the amount of force required in that scenario is quite minor. And as measured the case runout being seen as a result of that mandreling after sizing is quite minimal.)

Thanks again for the info and perspective. It's very helpful.

CG

 

[Jarhead6870]

I’m not familiar with Hornady’s “Unique” lube so I can’t speak to how effective it might be but I applied the Imperial sizing wax inside the necks with a “Q-tip”. After using both mandrels to expand the necks, I cleaned the inside of the necks with Q-tips that had been dipped in alcohol. I also use a steel mandrel that is polished with 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper to remove any brass residue to prevent scratching/scoring the inside of the necks every few cases.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

It wont happen again once you blow them out. This happens all the time when necking up

 

[Longtrain]

When I used to use Redding Competition Dies, both my 223 and 308 dies scratched the bullets, I called Redding, they had me send them back for repair. Got them back with no further problems.

 

[louc757]

^^^ Thanks a lot.

While issues with chamfer are not causing the scratches in the photo per se (the scratched portion in the photo never enters the neck) I think you're raising good points that if there are issues with the chamfer it could cause bullet seating forces that force bullet runout. At least that's how I'm interpreting part of what you say above. I'll look into it.

I'm using 21st Century expander mandrel die body and titantium nitride mandrels. I'm not totally sure, but I believe I used Hornady Unique case lube when I necked up the brass. If that's what I did I'm sure I didn't use very much - because that's been my habit for sizing with Unique in general. In all likelihood I rubbed my finger over the mouth of the case to get a little on, counting on the mandrel to drag the lube inside the neck. In hindsight I'm guessing I should have used more than I did. (Like I said previously, I remember thinking "Holy cow I've gotta push hard to get this mandrel in!". With that statement I'm referring to mandrel use during the neck-up process. On subsequent sizings of fired cases I'm also using that mandrel for expansion, but the amount of force required in that scenario is quite minor. And as measured the case runout being seen as a result of that mandreling after sizing is quite minimal.)

Thanks again for the info and perspective. It's very helpful.

CG

CG,

I shoot the 284 too, and use a similar process like you to prep new Lapua brass. I think Jarhead hit the nail on the head, it could be the lube. I've used Hornady One Shot before (some lovingly call it one stuck , but stopped that in rifle brass prep. Works OK on my Dillon with a carbide seating die for pistol. I would switch to Imperial sizing wax.

My process is I use to prep virgin Lapua 6.5-284 is to use Imperial sizing wax first with a 270 mandrel, then more wax with a 284 mandrel (I use the 21st Century mandrel as well). I neck turn after that, then chamfer the inside of the neck, and tumble to get all that lube out. When seating bullets ensure the bullet is vertical when raising the ram. If it tips to the side, it could hit the seating die walls causing the scratches. Dusty makes a good point as well. Don't worry about runout on virgin brass, especially when necking up. Once you fire form, it will come right back in alignment. Keep 'em in the middle!!!

Lou

 

[BLUESGUNNER]

I got that too. I polished the inside of my die and it went away. Also I rotate my case 90° after seating the bullet about 25% of the way in. I get less runout too.