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Bullet stability effecting short range accuracy

In my 223 rifles I’m shooting bullets right now that have low gyroscopic stability 1.2-1.3 at short range. I’ve got 1:7 twist barrels coming to hopefully remedy the situation but for now I’m still shooting.
What I find is that the 100 yard performance/accuracy is around 1/2 MOA at best but when I dial up the scopes and shoot 700 yards my POI groups tighten to 1/2 to 1/3 MOA. I’m really wondering if it’s me or if the bullets stabilize in flight. These are bolt guns with 26 inch barrels. 1:8 twist shooting 75 and 80 ELDM bullets AI chamber above 3000fps. I’ve fought this condition before I went AI and hoped it would improve with the velocity but it didn’t. I’ve finally gotten 1:7 twist coming but my other barrels are going to be kept.
 
The bullets are pretty much as stable as they will ever be coming right out of the barrel. Brian Litz set up shoot through targets at 100, 200 and 300 yards no group ever got smaller in his testing. I suspect your ability not to see the group as you shot reduced your anticipation of the next shot and less self imposed pressure shrank the groups.
 
The bullets are pretty much as stable as they will ever be coming right out of the barrel. Brian Litz set up shoot through targets at 100, 200 and 300 yards no group ever got smaller in his testing. I suspect your ability not to see the group as you shot reduced your anticipation of the next shot and less self imposed pressure shrank the groups.
According to my ballistics calculators, the gyroscopic stability improves as the bullet travels down range because the rpm maintains at a greater rate than the velocity.
 
I
In my 223 rifles I’m shooting bullets right now that have low gyroscopic stability 1.2-1.3 at short range. I’ve got 1:7 twist barrels coming to hopefully remedy the situation but for now I’m still shooting.
What I find is that the 100 yard performance/accuracy is around 1/2 MOA at best but when I dial up the scopes and shoot 700 yards my POI groups tighten to 1/2 to 1/3 MOA. I’m really wondering if it’s me or if the bullets stabilize in flight. These are bolt guns with 26 inch barrels. 1:8 twist shooting 75 and 80 ELDM bullets AI chamber above 3000fps. I’ve fought this condition before I went AI and hoped it would improve with the velocity but it didn’t. I’ve finally gotten 1:7 twist coming but my other barrels are going to be kept.
Hmm. Litz's stability calculator shows a stability factor of 1.42 for an 80ELDM at 3000 fps in a 1:8 twist barrel. It would be more for 75. [at 70F and 30 inch of mercury]
 
According to my ballistics calculators, the gyroscopic stability improves as the bullet travels down range because the rpm maintains at a greater rate than the velocity.
Well you can trust a calculator or Berger's Chief Ballistician.. But then it could be my mistaken memory of what I read. Folks in the shooting world especially longer range shooters should read his books.

Your problem could be a result of concentricity..
 
I’m thinking about putting targets at 300 and 500 to test for normalcy. I’m shooting steel at long range and something about that 1 inch orange circle at 100 might be getting in my brain.
 
The bullet going to sleep
Yeah. But, if the bullet is stabilized at the muzzle, it doesn't get any more stabilized as it slows down.

In any case, if the bullet holes aren't oblong at 100, it didn't make a difference in the group size.
 
According to my ballistics calculators, the gyroscopic stability improves as the bullet travels down range because the rpm maintains at a greater rate than the velocity.
The bullet becomes more stable as distance increases because its linear velocity decreases faster than its rotational velocity. Thus, at some point down range the bullet will be rotating much faster relative to its linear velocity than it was when it first exited the bore, and its gyroscopic stability (Sg) will be enhanced. Nonetheless, that won't make precision improve if the bullet trajectory is already offline as the beneficial effect on stability of the bullet rotational velocity/linear velocity ratio begins to take effect.

In my hands, barrel twist rates that are just slightly insufficient (i.e. twist rates that generate Sgs in perhaps the 1.3 to 1.4 range) have not affected precision in any way that is easy to detect. In other words, pushing bullets with Sgs in the 1.3 to 1.4 range shouldn't cause the groups to open up markedly. However, the bullet may behave as though its BC is actually lower than than it really is, and exhibit greater-than-expected wind deflection. When the barrel twist rate was so slow that the bullet Sg got down close to the 1.1 range (or below) is when the 3", 4", or even 5" groups at 100 yd started to show up for me.

Without a doubt, some of the the Hornady ELDM .224" bullets (73, 75 and 80 gr) appear to require a much faster twist rate than Hornady may have originally suggested for full stability (i.e. Sg >/= 1.5). Increasing velocity will certainly have a minor beneficial effect on bullet stability, but the effect is usually rather small in that it takes a pretty substantial increase in velocity to improve the predicted Sg by the same amount that even a very small increase in the barrel twist rate can.

Going with the 7-twist barrels is without a doubt the correct solution to this issue, but whether the increase in twist rate affects the apparent shot dispersions you obtained at 100 yd versus 700 yd is another story. That should only happen if the very slight decrease in group spread you observed at 700 yd versus 100 yd was actually caused by the insufficient twist rate, and I suspect that is not what's happening. But in fairness, you are running these bullets at an Sg range (i.e 1.2 to 1.3) that is slightly closer to a value I have found will cause the groups to open up markedly (~1.1). It may well be that groups start to open up noticeably more at Sgs below 1.3 and I have only had experience with Sgs that were either really low (</= ~1.1), or just slightly low (1.3 to 1.4). So you could be operating in a gyroscopic stability region where an undesirable effect such as increasing group spread could become much more obvious. Nonetheless, I have seen many claims over the years by shooters of rifles that group more tightly at distance than at short range. IMO - the most likely or common explanation for this behavior is scope parallax issues. There will always be those that believe there are alternative explanations such as epicyclic swerve to explain how group spread could actually decrease with distance. Bryan Litz, someone that knows a lot more than I do about these things, says that isn't so, and I choose to accept his explanation:


The good news here is that my opinion carries little weight as compared to what your actual testing will reveal once the new 7-twist barrels are installed. I appreciate that it may be some time before this happens, but please let us know how the 7-twist barrels affected short- versus long-range precision once they have been installed.
 
The bullet becomes more stable as distance increases because its linear velocity decreases faster than its rotational velocity. Thus, at some point down range the bullet will be rotating much faster relative to its linear velocity than it was when it first exited the bore, and its gyroscopic stability (Sg) will be enhanced. Nonetheless, that won't make precision improve if the bullet trajectory is already offline as the beneficial effect on stability of the bullet rotational velocity/linear velocity ratio begins to take effect.

In my hands, barrel twist rates that are just slightly insufficient (i.e. twist rates that generate Sgs in perhaps the 1.3 to 1.4 range) have not affected precision in any way that is easy to detect. In other words, pushing bullets with Sgs in the 1.3 to 1.4 range shouldn't cause the groups to open up markedly. However, the bullet may behave as though its BC is actually lower than than it really is, and exhibit greater-than-expected wind deflection. When the barrel twist rate was so slow that the bullet Sg got down close to the 1.1 range (or below) is when the 3", 4", or even 5" groups at 100 yd started to show up for me.

Without a doubt, some of the the Hornady ELDM .224" bullets (73, 75 and 80 gr) appear to require a much faster twist rate than Hornady may have originally suggested for full stability (i.e. Sg >/= 1.5). Increasing velocity will certainly have a minor beneficial effect on bullet stability, but the effect is usually rather small in that it takes a pretty substantial increase in velocity to improve the predicted Sg by the same amount that even a very small increase in the barrel twist rate can.

Going with the 7-twist barrels is without a doubt the correct solution to this issue, but whether the increase in twist rate affects the apparent shot dispersions you obtained at 100 yd versus 700 yd is another story. That should only happen if the very slight decrease in group spread you observed at 700 yd versus 100 yd was actually caused by the insufficient twist rate, and I suspect that is not what's happening. But in fairness, you are running these bullets at an Sg range (i.e 1.2 to 1.3) that is slightly closer to a value I have found will cause the groups to open up markedly (~1.1). It may well be that groups start to open up noticeably more at Sgs below 1.3 and I have only had experience with Sgs that were either really low (</= ~1.1), or just slightly low (1.3 to 1.4). So you could be operating in a gyroscopic stability region where an undesirable effect such as increasing group spread could become much more obvious. Nonetheless, I have seen many claims over the years by shooters of rifles that group more tightly at distance than at short range. IMO - the most likely or common explanation for this behavior is scope parallax issues. There will always be those that believe there are alternative explanations such as epicyclic swerve to explain how group spread could actually decrease with distance. Bryan Litz, someone that knows a lot more than I do about these things, says that isn't so, and I choose to accept his explanation:


The good news here is that my opinion carries little weight as compared to what your actual testing will reveal once the new 7-twist barrels are installed. I appreciate that it may be some time before this happens, but please let us know how the 7-twist barrels affected short- versus long-range precision once they have been installed.
1 barrel is supposed to arrive tomorrow and plan on getting it in the lathe pretty quickly. This will be my first “by my self” chambering session. I did chamber a barrel a few weeks ago with the aid of a good friend and gunsmith and I hope it goes as well on this one as it did then. I measure a lot before I cut and during. Wish me luck and I’ll post results.
Thanks Ned
 
IN my 6br with 107 Sierras i get a better group at 200 yards than i do at 100 yards Dont calm to be an expert but they just shoot better at 200 Tommy Mc
I got my barrel yesterday and chambered it last night. It shot 1/2 MOA today fire forming my brass for the AI chamber. The wind was fierce but it already shoots wonderfully.
 

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Loads tuned at 100 yards do not reflect what is needed for 700. We all do this and if you shoot varied yardages its understandable. I quit trying to tune a load at 100 yards on my guns that I typically never shoot at 100. I have switched to doing all my load development for my longer range or varied range guns to 250 yards. If I was smarter and had a longer range readily available I would work up loads for some of my guns at 4or500 yards as this is the more typical range I shoot with them. Unfortunately life gets in the way and time or situations do not allow this option.

Lots of variables for what you are seeing and this is just another one of them.

Good luck on that ackley. Still one of my favorite rounds.
 
Loads tuned at 100 yards do not reflect what is needed for 700. We all do this and if you shoot varied yardages its understandable. I quit trying to tune a load at 100 yards on my guns that I typically never shoot at 100. I have switched to doing all my load development for my longer range or varied range guns to 250 yards. If I was smarter and had a longer range readily available I would work up loads for some of my guns at 4or500 yards as this is the more typical range I shoot with them. Unfortunately life gets in the way and time or situations do not allow this option.

Lots of variables for what you are seeing and this is just another one of them.

Good luck on that ackley. Still one of my favorite rounds.
Appears that there is a fair number on both sides of this. I'd suggest that it may be tune related. I use tuners for this but it will work with powder/seating depth too. If willing to try, I think you'll find it worth trying. That is, just tune to the very next node, up or down and see if you get the same results tuning for 1000 at 100. You must creep up on it without skipping over the next sweet spot. The logic is this. Tune and frequency are interrelated and it repeats over and over. Not always identical but very close...except, poi will be higher or lower at the next node, discounting velocity.

Lots still to be learned about pc but I believe it's real and that it can only happen at the top of the bbl swing. So, what happens to tuning at both distances, top vs bottom.

I would eventually get around to testing this but I don't compete at long range and it'd be a little trouble to shoot a few targets at both long and short for me.

If anyone wants to give it a try, I do think it might work out. At the least. we will have learned something and it might be good. If I'm right...about a 50/50 chance. ;)

Another big factor, either way, is as handloaders, velocity variation in cf is not big.
 
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