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Bullet sort prior to meplat trimming

Alexander-M

Gold $$ Contributor
[I know there are numerous threads and articles on this 'general' subject, but after reading many of them, I still have a question.]

After reading numerous articles and posts, I am ready to embark on meplat trimming and bullet pointing, although I may start with just bullet pointing initially.

Understood - Since the bullet is pushed by the base against the pointing die, the base becomes the datum, so it makes sense to measure the Bullet-Overall-Length (BOL) prior to pointing. The bullets to be pointed can thus be sorted into groups according to the BOL dimension.

Not certain - For meplat trimming however, some say that the bullets should be sorted by Bullet-Base-To-Ogive (BBTO), while others say they should be sorted by the Bearing-Surface (BS). As I understand it, and although I do not own any of this tooling yet, the bullets to be trimmed are pushed into the trimmer body up to the start of the bearing surface, and then they are trimmed by the cutter. The start of the Bearing-Surface thus becomes the datum for meplat trimming, and I do not quite see where the BBTO or BS become relevant.

Question - If this is correct, why wouldn’t the bullets be sorted by the Tip-To-Bearing-Surface distance (TTBS)? As can be seen in the sketch, TTBS = BOL – BBTO

BulletSegments Corrected.jpg
Thanks for your help.

Alex
 
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I have found a very good correlation between base to ogive & bearing surface measurements, so I set my Whidden meplat cutter to take a clean point cut off the longer bullets & sort the ones that need more into a second batch that I retrim more aggressively. That's good enough batching for me - as long s I discard the oddball one or three as barrel warmers.

The reason I do it that way is that I once batched 2000 bullets & found .001-.002" difference when I sample remeasured them. The ogive to parallel junction is an ephemeral location.
 
Nando,

I use different tools, but second John's approach to measuring and sorting.

HTH,
DocBII
 
I have found a very good correlation between base to ogive & bearing surface measurements, so I set my Whidden meplat cutter to take a clean point cut off the longer bullets & sort the ones that need more into a second batch that I retrim more aggressively. That's good enough batching for me - as long s I discard the oddball one or three as barrel warmers.

The reason I do it that way is that I once batched 2000 bullets & found .001-.002" difference when I sample remeasured them. The ogive to parallel junction is an ephemeral location.
John,
You said, "cut off the longer bullets". Which dimension did you use to determine the longer bullets, the Base to Ogive?

Thx!
Alex
PS. Thanks, HTH
 
"Base to Ogive" is from the base to a point on the ogive that is the diameter of the competitor used, not to the end of the bearing surface like in your illustration.
Myself, I sort/qualify by 1- "base to ogive", then 2- "base to seater (diameter)", then 3- "OAL".
Donovan
 
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Nando,

My trimming tool measures from a point on the ogive, so I'll find a couple of long ones after sorting by ogive length. Then I set the tool up to take off between 0.005 and 0.010". If nothing is trimmed or the point looks ugly, I set up the tool to take off another five to ten thousandths. Very seldom have to take off more than that, depending upon the bullet quality. Since I'm doing 500-1k at a time, I get reasonable lot sizes. Mix up all the really out of spec bullets and shoot with the same load to test how consistently your load performs.

HTH,
DocB
 
Alex, I would recommend starting your foray into bullet pointing simply by sorting to OAL, or base to point as it has also been referred to here. Sort some bullets from a single Lot # into length groups of 1.5 to 2.0 thousandths. Practice setting and using your pointing die with as many bullets as it takes to get a feel for the process. I would suggest starting with bullets from the shortest or longest length groups first, as you're likely to get far fewer numbers at either extreme (outliers). That way, you can use the bulk of your sorted bullets, which generally fall into the middle length groups, loading for matches. I follow this practice loading for matches, that is, I want all the bullets for a single string of fire to have come out of the same length group. But I typically load the first 3-5 rounds with the length group outliers for use as my foulers before the first string of fire. I always have at least two sighters with the same length group as the rounds for record that I will use prior to shooting for score.

The idea of pointing is to close up the meplat significantly (although not completely), but not to close it up so much you create a "bulge" behind the point as the die pushes down on it. I usually point length-sorted (but untrimmed) bullets to where the meplat is closed up by about 50-70%, as compared to unpointed. This is enough to benefit from the process, but not so much as to overprint and create a bulge. When you believe you have the pointing die micrometer set appropriately for a given length group, record the micrometer setting. To point the remaining length groups, all you need to do is to adjust the micrometer setting by the length difference between groups. For example, let's say you sort into 7 length groups that differ by 1.5 thousandths. You practice pointing with the longest length group, then start to point the middle length group of the 7, which is Group 4. That is 3 groups away from #7, so you tighten down the pointing die micrometer by 3 x .0015", or 4.5 thousandths and start pointing. It makes it easy to set the pointing die consistently for different length groups within a single Lot# of bullets for every use.

There are a number of reasons why people use the particular methods they use for pointing. Each has its advantages and each has its caveats. No matter how you sort your bullets, the ballistic effect of length variance in some region of the bullet is going to be a potential concern, regardless of the pointing process you use. For example, bullets that are sorted only by OAL as I described above may differ in length in the bearing surface/boattail region such that they're all the same OAL, but might have slightly more or less bearing surface and base down in the neck when seated to a uniform seating depth. This could theoretically change the effective case volume and/or bearing surface-to-neck contact area. I don't view that as an issue because I can change seating depth for jumped bullets up to .009" in either direction without changing velocity enough that my chronograph can reliably measure it. Length-sorted and pointed bullets from within a single length group have nowhere near that much variance. The other question I would ask is, how much sorting do you really want to do? If you really wanted to, I'm sure you could sort by enough different parameters that you would get 100 different bullets groups from every box of 100 bullets. Obviously that is a ridiculously extreme example, but in general I prefer not to spend any more time sorting than I absolutely have to.

One purpose for trimming first is to obtain a more flat and uniform meplat prior to trimming. However, bullets of different length can end up with wider or narrower diameter meplats before they are actually pointed, depending on how much they are actually trimmed. This can also affect the pointing process. For that reason, I have never been fully satisfied with the points I generated starting with trimmed bullets. For the same reason, if you want to trim first, you really should sort by ogive after the bullets are pointed using a tool such as Bob Green's Comparator, but that is another sorting step.

The argument against pointing untrimmed bullets is that bullet meplats straight out of the box often have one side slightly higher than the other (i.e they're not perfectly "flat"). This unevenness is perceived to potentially caused imbalance. However, the closer in to the center axis of rotation the tip is closed, the less any unevenness actually affects balance as the bullet spins. In addition, the last few Lots of Bergers I have purchased have had much better meplats than in years past. They seem to have noticeably improved their QC.

The reason I'm going to this length here is simply to convince you to try the simplest and most expedient pointing approach first. That approach is simply to sort bullets by OAL and point them without trimming. If you do that, I can guarantee you will see a very slight improvement in elevation required at a given distance, but more importantly, a noticeable difference in consistency and group spread. If you wish to add meplat trimming and/or other sorting steps to the process at some time in the future, you can do so easily. I would also recommend that you determine at that time whether any of the added steps actually provide a measurable improvement before processing large numbers of bullets. If you can't shoot the difference, it really isn't worth the extra effort. Either way, starting out with the very simplest approach will help you get a good feel for the process without being too tricky. Further, it will only make it easier for you if you want to add more detailed steps at some point in the future.
 
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"Base to Ogive" is from the base to a point on the ogive that is the diameter of the competitor used, not to the end of the bearing surface like in your illustration.
Myself, I sort/qualify by 1- "base to ogive", then 2- "base to seater (diameter)", then 3- "OAL".
Donovan
Donovan,
I understand what you mean regarding the difference between the comparator diameter and the actual caliber diameter, the latter of which defines the bearing surface. As a matter of fact, the comparator I use to measure bullet-base-to-ogive, has an ID of 0.275; definitely not the nominal caliber 0.284 diameter, for instance. However, when I measure the distance to the lands, I use this comparator, which is the same one I use to measure the bullet seating depth. As long as I use the same comparators and tools for all the measurements, the results should remain rather consistent.
Thank you for your input!
Alex
 
Greg,

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation, and for the time you put into it! Believe me, I am making the most out of this information.

Alex
 

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