I do not measure bullet seating force but I see a lot on this subject on this forum. Just out of curiosity I am wondering if any of you that make this measurement and use it for consistency and improved accuracy ever lub the bullet or the inside of the case neck to facilitate this process?
Bullet Seating Force
- Thread starter chkunz
- Start date
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Do not lube a bullet. Even case lube from your fingers will show up on the target
Keep in mind that seating forces and tension are different/separate animals. Both can exist in amplitude independent of the other. So the only way to correlate them is to set one as a standard(making the other a variable).
Currently, we can't even measure tension, but we can correlate seating force to tension credibly -given a set friction coefficient(that's the carbon layer). With this, spring back forces(tension) become the variable seen in our seating force measure.
IMO, the best bullet seating lube is already provided(luckily) by the fired carbon layer.
I say luckily because it's free, so we don't have to buy it from someone who figured this out otherwise.
You might dry foul new necks to ease seating force. Excess force messes with resultant seating depths.
But new neck seating force is typically meaningless (as with any other measure of new brass).
Those who purposely take their necks to squeaky clean are just creating problems for themselves -with no gain available.
They probably follow up with lubing, and then it's questionable, here, whether they could judge tension by their seating forces.
I've been dry pre-fouling bores, and bullet coating with Tungsten Disulphide(WS2) forever.
Even before coined Danzac(which I hate).
This stuff is slipperier than Moly, yet apparently matching carbon close enough that it does not change seating forces over naked bullets, or muzzle velocity, and it cleans out just like carbon. If I really needed to pre-foul clean necks(and naked bullets) for good seating, I would dry burnish in WS2 from a small bore mop.
Currently, we can't even measure tension, but we can correlate seating force to tension credibly -given a set friction coefficient(that's the carbon layer). With this, spring back forces(tension) become the variable seen in our seating force measure.
IMO, the best bullet seating lube is already provided(luckily) by the fired carbon layer.
I say luckily because it's free, so we don't have to buy it from someone who figured this out otherwise.
You might dry foul new necks to ease seating force. Excess force messes with resultant seating depths.
But new neck seating force is typically meaningless (as with any other measure of new brass).
Those who purposely take their necks to squeaky clean are just creating problems for themselves -with no gain available.
They probably follow up with lubing, and then it's questionable, here, whether they could judge tension by their seating forces.
I've been dry pre-fouling bores, and bullet coating with Tungsten Disulphide(WS2) forever.
Even before coined Danzac(which I hate).
This stuff is slipperier than Moly, yet apparently matching carbon close enough that it does not change seating forces over naked bullets, or muzzle velocity, and it cleans out just like carbon. If I really needed to pre-foul clean necks(and naked bullets) for good seating, I would dry burnish in WS2 from a small bore mop.
mikecr said:
Mike, can you measure the difference between seating force and tension? How are they different at the target or separately effect accuracy/consistency?
When I load my 20 tactical with boat tail bullets in new brass the resistance is great and I get a variety of seating depths, so I very, very lightly lube the bullets and seating resistance is much less and I get consistent seating depths. After once fired, I do as advised and lightly spin a nylon brush to get the big crud out, leaving that light coat of residue and bullets seat smoothly.
No, not directly. I currently have no way to measure tension in itself. So the best I can do with tension is endeavor to sustain what targets tell me. I control it with adjustment of length in neck sizing, and my inferred difference is seen with seating force.BenPerfected said:
Seating force in itself means nothing on a target.BenPerfected said:
Tension means starting pressure for a load. This you can see on target.
Tension variance, with rational sizing & bearing seated well above neck-shoulder junction, is a fine adjustment. With QuickLoad it appears up to ~2kPSI adjustment to starting pressure.
Pressure goes up from there when bearing is seated into donut area, or if sizing of donuts, adding this energy even while bearing is not directly under it. This is why I suggest there is nothing good in FL sizing of necks.
I notice many folks assume seating into the lands(ITL) as a foundation of their load. I figure results here must have convinced them of this. Yet, I personally have never found this to actually be best on target. So I watch and reason about it.
Tension variance is reduced in affect with high starting pressures already provided with ITL seating. So those with high tension variance(from excess sizing, poor seating choice, inconsistent annealing) might see better results while ITL, even if this is not their most accurate relationship to lands. I doubt most of these folks actually do full seating testing anyway, and in some cases high starting pressure is also prerequisite to a competitive load.
To get more of what works(we all want more, right?), some anneal to increase seating force, so that they can jam bullets further before soft seating. Some equate this increasing of seating force as increasing of tension, but the truth is opposite. Tension is purely spring back gripping bullet bearing. Process annealing removes some spring back energy, full annealing kills it. Annealing reduces tension.
But at the same time, and depending on sizing method and frictional conditions, seating forces can be increased with annealing. This is an example of seating force and tension being different and separate.
T-Rex,
It had to come as a surprise for those that use neck tension when they found the pressure gage that measures seating force did not measure in tensions and there was no conversion for tensions to pounds.
I have tension gages, my tension gages indicate pounds. I use bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get.
F. Guffey
It had to come as a surprise for those that use neck tension when they found the pressure gage that measures seating force did not measure in tensions and there was no conversion for tensions to pounds.
I have tension gages, my tension gages indicate pounds. I use bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get.
F. Guffey
There is nothing like working with new brass, new brass is my favorite when forming cases. New brass comes with annealed neck and shoulders. If someone finds annealing increases seating force I would suggest they change their methods and or techniques. I decided annealing was governed by a few simple rules.
F. Guffey
bigedp51
T-REX
I wet tumble so my necks are squeaky clean so I use graphite inside the necks just before expanding the case necks. I went on a marathon resizing and prepping three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass over a year ago. And the brass sat for a long time before being loaded and I noticed that more force was needed to seat the bullets. I then would re-expand the necks using a Sinclair expander die and mandrels.
Your asking a loaded question which depends on how "clean" the inside of the neck is, neck thickness, type resizing die used, if you lift weights, ;D etc.
CatShooter brought the subject up that he uses the Lyman type "M" expander die below for expanding his necks and reducing neck runout. I had read this before at other websites being used with semi auto rifles in competition. The only problem I see is the expander is rigidly mounted and does not float like the Sinclair expander die does. The type "M"die does help with bullet alignment and "slightly" expanding the case mouth more uniformly than hand held deburing tools.
All you really need is some graphite and little balls.
I wet tumble so my necks are squeaky clean so I use graphite inside the necks just before expanding the case necks. I went on a marathon resizing and prepping three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass over a year ago. And the brass sat for a long time before being loaded and I noticed that more force was needed to seat the bullets. I then would re-expand the necks using a Sinclair expander die and mandrels.
Your asking a loaded question which depends on how "clean" the inside of the neck is, neck thickness, type resizing die used, if you lift weights, ;D etc.
CatShooter brought the subject up that he uses the Lyman type "M" expander die below for expanding his necks and reducing neck runout. I had read this before at other websites being used with semi auto rifles in competition. The only problem I see is the expander is rigidly mounted and does not float like the Sinclair expander die does. The type "M"die does help with bullet alignment and "slightly" expanding the case mouth more uniformly than hand held deburing tools.
All you really need is some graphite and little balls.
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