Bullet seating depth tool?
- Thread starter CanusLatransSnpr
- Start date
Well, I tried Lawrence and Ron's method for finding the lands. Seat a bullet, polish it with steel wool, look for marks and feel for resistance etc. I have to say that it does work. Didn't strip the bolt down, per Roger's recommendation, and it seemed to work alright. However, I think I still have a problem. The problem being that I would only get marks from the rifling in one place on the bullet. I'm not sure how many lands and grooves are in this barrel but, I'm confident its more than one 
! Please excuse my sarcasm! So, this leaves me wondering if there isn't some issues with the throat on this barrel. Possibly a poor chamber job from the factory? Mind you this barrel only has 524 documented rounds down it so I know it isn't shot out!
I would only see one land mark on the bullet when I would chamber the round. It would start on the ogive, skip for just a small distance, and then start again. It looked like some scuffing but, not real wide. What do you folks think is going on here?
Mike
! Please excuse my sarcasm! So, this leaves me wondering if there isn't some issues with the throat on this barrel. Possibly a poor chamber job from the factory? Mind you this barrel only has 524 documented rounds down it so I know it isn't shot out! I would only see one land mark on the bullet when I would chamber the round. It would start on the ogive, skip for just a small distance, and then start again. It looked like some scuffing but, not real wide. What do you folks think is going on here?
Mike
welllll ,,,we're not there to see it...buttt.....lots-a times the bullet will scuff going thur the throat/leade area befoe it contacts the rifleing .....and trick you.....seat one so long (no primer) that you have to force the bolt closed and seat the bullet with force....that way you will know for shure that you are touching the lands.....then you shuld see all of the lands mark the bullet uniformly all the way around....Roger
Good call Roger! I'll have to give that a try and soon. Once again, I can't believe I didn't think of that! Thanks Roger!
Mike
Mike
Good ...I hope it helps.....I like to black the bullet in a candle flame.....just stik it in there for a few seconds.....and it will black it ....it is very sooty and easy to spot any contact with lands/throat etc.......or a magic marker/shrpie on the bullet surface works tooo....(lawyers make me say that ...ahahaha....)....Roger
PS...measure the bullet length before forcing it in the chamber and then after ...you will see that the bullet was pushed in or seated by the closing of the bolt ......use normal neck tension so the bullet wont stick....if it does just peck from the muzzle end with a cleaning rod or use a drop rod made of brass ....(that is contorversial also....just like me...ahahah).....either way peck it out and try again....once you fiddle with it some you will become an expert....
PS...measure the bullet length before forcing it in the chamber and then after ...you will see that the bullet was pushed in or seated by the closing of the bolt ......use normal neck tension so the bullet wont stick....if it does just peck from the muzzle end with a cleaning rod or use a drop rod made of brass ....(that is contorversial also....just like me...ahahah).....either way peck it out and try again....once you fiddle with it some you will become an expert....
Thanks for the advice Roger, and everyone else too! I'm glad that I can come back and access this thread because there is alot to remember here !
Mike
!Mike
Okay I think many will disagree but here is my $.03 worth.
Carefull read:
If you have the "exact measurements for YOUR RIFLE", AND you have an "exact recipe for bullet seating depth for YOUR RIFLE", then and only then does it matter that you are getting the exact measurements off the lands to make that recipe.
Example: An excellent gunsmith or engineer gave you the exact blueprint and validated specs for YOUR RIFLE. In addition you were given an exact recipe for bullet seating depth of .0425 off the lands with a deviation of only +- .002. This is the one and only perfect recipe for YOUR RIFLE. Then and only then does it matter to get an exact reading from your tools. All those things mentioned in earlyposts really really matters.
Now read carefully again
Very few people have the exact blueprint specs (and validated). You are really using these tools to get a "base measurement". Why do I say a "base measurement". Because no matter what, you are going to take that measurement, and based on that base measurement, build your seating depth reloads and record the seating depth. You will then go to the range and test for accuracy. You might build a few +- .005 or .007 to that starting seating depth reload so you can cut down your range time, but the bottom line is you are going to base your reloads on the accuracy out at the range and not on a given measurement off the lands recipe. Using the Hornady tool, you can get an approximate average with 4-6 measures but it just doesn't matter if you are off by .002. It doesn't matter if there is dirt, grime or mayonaise at the lands start. What matters is you get a base measurement to start with your seating bullet depth and you find the recipe per range results.
Trying to get this exact measurment off the lands just doesn't make a big deal. Also some people paying for a fireformed tap case instead of using the modified case or making your own from a non-fireformed brass and believing that it makes a whole lot of difference is incorrect as well. It is "your PROVEN seating depth at the range". That is the ticket.
So unless someone gives you an EXACT RELOAD RECIPE that mandates you have to be exactly so far off the lands for a seating depth (already tested and validated), trying to get an absolute exact measurement off the lands with any tool is of very little use with the exception of talk at the dinner table.
BTW - I use the Hornady tool (I luv it), along with either a purchased modified case or my own made tapped case for multiple calibers.
Carefull read:
If you have the "exact measurements for YOUR RIFLE", AND you have an "exact recipe for bullet seating depth for YOUR RIFLE", then and only then does it matter that you are getting the exact measurements off the lands to make that recipe.
Example: An excellent gunsmith or engineer gave you the exact blueprint and validated specs for YOUR RIFLE. In addition you were given an exact recipe for bullet seating depth of .0425 off the lands with a deviation of only +- .002. This is the one and only perfect recipe for YOUR RIFLE. Then and only then does it matter to get an exact reading from your tools. All those things mentioned in earlyposts really really matters.
Now read carefully again
Very few people have the exact blueprint specs (and validated). You are really using these tools to get a "base measurement". Why do I say a "base measurement". Because no matter what, you are going to take that measurement, and based on that base measurement, build your seating depth reloads and record the seating depth. You will then go to the range and test for accuracy. You might build a few +- .005 or .007 to that starting seating depth reload so you can cut down your range time, but the bottom line is you are going to base your reloads on the accuracy out at the range and not on a given measurement off the lands recipe. Using the Hornady tool, you can get an approximate average with 4-6 measures but it just doesn't matter if you are off by .002. It doesn't matter if there is dirt, grime or mayonaise at the lands start. What matters is you get a base measurement to start with your seating bullet depth and you find the recipe per range results.
Trying to get this exact measurment off the lands just doesn't make a big deal. Also some people paying for a fireformed tap case instead of using the modified case or making your own from a non-fireformed brass and believing that it makes a whole lot of difference is incorrect as well. It is "your PROVEN seating depth at the range". That is the ticket.
So unless someone gives you an EXACT RELOAD RECIPE that mandates you have to be exactly so far off the lands for a seating depth (already tested and validated), trying to get an absolute exact measurement off the lands with any tool is of very little use with the exception of talk at the dinner table.
BTW - I use the Hornady tool (I luv it), along with either a purchased modified case or my own made tapped case for multiple calibers.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Mike,
I think you have been given a lot of good advice I have used most of them with success but I now use the method you were having trouble with, the Hornaday tool.
I build my own modified cases on the lathe, I think that may help some but I have had good luck with the factory cases, I think it just takes a little practice. I will take several measurements with the same bullet and usually the majority of the measurements will be exactly the same, I then take that bullet and set my die up.
I hope this helps some.
Wayne.
I think you have been given a lot of good advice I have used most of them with success but I now use the method you were having trouble with, the Hornaday tool.
I build my own modified cases on the lathe, I think that may help some but I have had good luck with the factory cases, I think it just takes a little practice. I will take several measurements with the same bullet and usually the majority of the measurements will be exactly the same, I then take that bullet and set my die up.
I hope this helps some.
Wayne.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
338WinMag said:
338WinMag,
I have no idea what your trying say, having the blueprints will do you no good every bullet make has a different ogive measurement as a matter of a fact there can be several different base to ogive measurements within a single box of bullets, that's the purpose of the tool,to measure where the ogive is just kissing the lands, there is no such thing as a exact recipe and .002 can and does make a difference, I have seen .002 dramatically change the es and sd of a given load. Now Read Carefully SEATING DEPTH DOES MATTER!!!
Wayne.
Post Reply #1
I kinda knew some might not "see that forest through the trees".
1. I never ever ever said "bullet seating depth" was not important.
2. I never said anything contrary to "every bullet make has a different ogive measurement.
3. I never said anything to the contrary "as a matter of a fact there can be several different base to ogive measurements within a single box of bullets.
4. It was stated "there is no such thing as a exact recipe". --> Sure there is such a thing. Ummmm, is that not what you are trying to perfectly measure for?
A lot of assumptions of what was thought that I was inferring but those assumptions are incorrect. I wrote the post to assist, not to argue. Seriously I did. On this subject, I have spoken with a few manufacturers, a few gunsmiths, a lot of reloaders. Those that initially got defensive, after they put down their defenses, they finally said "now I get it". I will try to explain in two posts. This is Post Reply #1.
Example: Mr. Winmag just got a new rifle. He has no money to buy anything but reloading components. As a matter of fact he has never heard of any of these tools or even heard the term "lands". Mr Winmag is though an excellent 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards shooter and everyone of his rifles he owns shoot 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards. How does he do that? How did any one of his professional reloading forefathers get all their rifles to shoot 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards? They don't have any of these tools. No one told them a "specific recipe" for each rifle. The only "lands" they know is the one they live on.
Answer: After his case prep and prime:
1. He measures an exact amount of a specific powder
2. He seats his bullets according to a "routine measurement" his always "starts off" with. (there is your lands measurement.
3. He seats a number of bullets and records which bullet and how far the seating depth. Maybe he used a wooden ruler with a specific knife edge cut for the distance - he denoted, recorded and tested that seating depth distance group of rounds at the range.
4. He comes back home from the range and makes seating depth adjustments for some new reloads (+ or - from his routine measurement)
5. Thru trial and error he found the exact recipe (among other things, bullet seating depth) for his new rifle for 1/2 MOA @ 100
Mr. Winmag never ever measured the initial bullet seating depth off the lands. He doesn't know what that is nor have the tools to do so even if he did. Thru his trial and error technique he "does know and use his new tested bullet seating depth measurement" (distance of base of brass to the a spcific location on that curve of the bullet some call the ogive).
No one previously owned the rifle and already "worked up" the exact resipe for that rifle (and yes for that bullet, primer, powder, seating depth, etc etc.) So he had to do so. If he then gave this new rifle to his son, his son would not have to go through all this again. He already has the exact recipe. (yes bullets even in the same lot have different ogive measurements - that is in Post Reply #2)
One minor exception is if you are loading per jamming or touching the lands, which with all the possible ramifications to such a practice, most do not do anymore including target shooters. The point is, whatever tools one uses for the "base measurement), it is not that significant at all. It does not matter if you are dead-on with your lands measurement or if you are off by .004. All that is, is a starting point, and almost always always always changes once you have tested at the range.
So we can use the term quite nicely "off the lands" when we speak of our bullet seating depth and it helps us state how we have our bullet seating depth set at, but it really is most often a starting point specification and not a needed measurement as one can glean from the example.
I kinda knew some might not "see that forest through the trees". 1. I never ever ever said "bullet seating depth" was not important.
2. I never said anything contrary to "every bullet make has a different ogive measurement.
3. I never said anything to the contrary "as a matter of a fact there can be several different base to ogive measurements within a single box of bullets.
4. It was stated "there is no such thing as a exact recipe". --> Sure there is such a thing. Ummmm, is that not what you are trying to perfectly measure for?
A lot of assumptions of what was thought that I was inferring but those assumptions are incorrect. I wrote the post to assist, not to argue. Seriously I did. On this subject, I have spoken with a few manufacturers, a few gunsmiths, a lot of reloaders. Those that initially got defensive, after they put down their defenses, they finally said "now I get it". I will try to explain in two posts. This is Post Reply #1.
Example: Mr. Winmag just got a new rifle. He has no money to buy anything but reloading components. As a matter of fact he has never heard of any of these tools or even heard the term "lands". Mr Winmag is though an excellent 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards shooter and everyone of his rifles he owns shoot 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards. How does he do that? How did any one of his professional reloading forefathers get all their rifles to shoot 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards? They don't have any of these tools. No one told them a "specific recipe" for each rifle. The only "lands" they know is the one they live on.
Answer: After his case prep and prime:
1. He measures an exact amount of a specific powder
2. He seats his bullets according to a "routine measurement" his always "starts off" with. (there is your lands measurement.
3. He seats a number of bullets and records which bullet and how far the seating depth. Maybe he used a wooden ruler with a specific knife edge cut for the distance - he denoted, recorded and tested that seating depth distance group of rounds at the range.
4. He comes back home from the range and makes seating depth adjustments for some new reloads (+ or - from his routine measurement)
5. Thru trial and error he found the exact recipe (among other things, bullet seating depth) for his new rifle for 1/2 MOA @ 100
Mr. Winmag never ever measured the initial bullet seating depth off the lands. He doesn't know what that is nor have the tools to do so even if he did. Thru his trial and error technique he "does know and use his new tested bullet seating depth measurement" (distance of base of brass to the a spcific location on that curve of the bullet some call the ogive).
No one previously owned the rifle and already "worked up" the exact resipe for that rifle (and yes for that bullet, primer, powder, seating depth, etc etc.) So he had to do so. If he then gave this new rifle to his son, his son would not have to go through all this again. He already has the exact recipe. (yes bullets even in the same lot have different ogive measurements - that is in Post Reply #2)
One minor exception is if you are loading per jamming or touching the lands, which with all the possible ramifications to such a practice, most do not do anymore including target shooters. The point is, whatever tools one uses for the "base measurement), it is not that significant at all. It does not matter if you are dead-on with your lands measurement or if you are off by .004. All that is, is a starting point, and almost always always always changes once you have tested at the range.
So we can use the term quite nicely "off the lands" when we speak of our bullet seating depth and it helps us state how we have our bullet seating depth set at, but it really is most often a starting point specification and not a needed measurement as one can glean from the example.
Post Reply #2
Hopefull Post Reply #1 helped explain #1 "bullet seating depth" was not important statement.
Okay now to the next 2.
2. "I never said anything contrary to "every bullet make has a different ogive measurement.
3. I never said anything to the contrary "as a matter of a fact there can be several different base to ogive measurements within a single box of bullets."
Yes every bullet make has a different ogive measurement. that is why a seating depth recipe for Nosler Partition, might be different for Barnes TTSX or for Hornady Interlock FB or BT. The post was all about discerning and using tools for acquiring lands distance, seating depth etc. It was not for a specific bullet make and caliber. (I don't think I saw that in there anyway). The ogive bullet is defined as the “curve of a bullet's forward sectionâ€. Where you measure on a bullet ogive might be different where I measure on mine so again these "measurements" are arbitrary. The importance is a reloader uses them as his static base measurement.
Yes bullets within the same box (lots) can and do have variable ogive measurements. I performed some pretty serioius all around measurements a short while back for 4 different bullet makers and different lots. As to regarding ogive within the same lot for all of those bullet makers, the deviation was approximately .0039. (..and nope, I am not going to cull anything. Costs and money is too precious now adays) Notice the deviation within the lots. This was pretty close to all bullet makers so maybe this is an exceptable tolerance for most bullets. Maybe the super duper premium bullets have better manufacturer tolerances.
Regarding .002 makes a difference. ...ummmmm maybe a small few might see that difference but because and just as you mentioned, even in the same box (lot), the ogive can be different, you might have to do a lot of culling to get that perfection. Also, the ogive difference doesn't make the whole accuracy issue a go\no go. Your rfle might work well with tolerances of .007 with no affect on accuracy or it might not. I got a buck says I can measure a few of peoples boxes and they have that .002 deviation as a tolerated norm and these people are shooting consistent sub moa. I measure every single load from start to finish and I bet I have some slight deviation. I also use a Digital Headspace gauge on every load for all my caliber reloads trying to attain that perfection but I don't always get it.
Bottom line: Trying to get an exact "off the lands" measurement makes little sense and one is really beating the head against the wall. Marketing and product hype has you believing that but read my Post Reply #1 carefully and you wil hopefully see the light. Seating Depth is critical; Exact "off the lands" measurement is not one bit.
Thanks for listening.
Hopefull Post Reply #1 helped explain #1 "bullet seating depth" was not important statement.
Okay now to the next 2.
2. "I never said anything contrary to "every bullet make has a different ogive measurement.
3. I never said anything to the contrary "as a matter of a fact there can be several different base to ogive measurements within a single box of bullets."
Yes every bullet make has a different ogive measurement. that is why a seating depth recipe for Nosler Partition, might be different for Barnes TTSX or for Hornady Interlock FB or BT. The post was all about discerning and using tools for acquiring lands distance, seating depth etc. It was not for a specific bullet make and caliber. (I don't think I saw that in there anyway). The ogive bullet is defined as the “curve of a bullet's forward sectionâ€. Where you measure on a bullet ogive might be different where I measure on mine so again these "measurements" are arbitrary. The importance is a reloader uses them as his static base measurement.
Yes bullets within the same box (lots) can and do have variable ogive measurements. I performed some pretty serioius all around measurements a short while back for 4 different bullet makers and different lots. As to regarding ogive within the same lot for all of those bullet makers, the deviation was approximately .0039. (..and nope, I am not going to cull anything. Costs and money is too precious now adays) Notice the deviation within the lots. This was pretty close to all bullet makers so maybe this is an exceptable tolerance for most bullets. Maybe the super duper premium bullets have better manufacturer tolerances.
Regarding .002 makes a difference. ...ummmmm maybe a small few might see that difference but because and just as you mentioned, even in the same box (lot), the ogive can be different, you might have to do a lot of culling to get that perfection. Also, the ogive difference doesn't make the whole accuracy issue a go\no go. Your rfle might work well with tolerances of .007 with no affect on accuracy or it might not. I got a buck says I can measure a few of peoples boxes and they have that .002 deviation as a tolerated norm and these people are shooting consistent sub moa. I measure every single load from start to finish and I bet I have some slight deviation. I also use a Digital Headspace gauge on every load for all my caliber reloads trying to attain that perfection but I don't always get it.
Bottom line: Trying to get an exact "off the lands" measurement makes little sense and one is really beating the head against the wall. Marketing and product hype has you believing that but read my Post Reply #1 carefully and you wil hopefully see the light. Seating Depth is critical; Exact "off the lands" measurement is not one bit.
Thanks for listening.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
bigmag,
I am not going to argue with you, there is not a single member here with the exception of biged (He likes to argue)that will agree with post #1 or#2 and if post #s 1,2,3,and 4 were on the same line as #s 5 and 6 they wouldn't agree with them either, this is not sniperhide it is 6br, we don't measure our groups with a tape measure we use calipers, at anyrate welcome to 6br it is a awesome site with a bunch of great people willing to help, enjoy
Wayne.
I am not going to argue with you, there is not a single member here with the exception of biged (He likes to argue)that will agree with post #1 or#2 and if post #s 1,2,3,and 4 were on the same line as #s 5 and 6 they wouldn't agree with them either, this is not sniperhide it is 6br, we don't measure our groups with a tape measure we use calipers, at anyrate welcome to 6br it is a awesome site with a bunch of great people willing to help, enjoy
Wayne.
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
I personaly use the Hornady tool. I get my measurement touching the lands, add .005, then I will chamber an unloaded bullet and start moving the bullet in the case by .001 until I have no resistance! This is the measurement I will use to be on the lands.
Personally, I have definetly found bullets from different lots will vary a few thousandths!
My .02
, but works for me!BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
If you use the Hornady tool, it would seem to me that you do not want a tight fit between the body of the case, and the chamber, close, but not tight. This is because you want the case to be stopped on the shoulder, and nothing else. Also, initally I was concerned that there would be some slack in how the case fit the chamber, from bolt face to chamber shoulder. Upon further examination, i can see that this is not mprotant. All one really need is an easily measured, repeatable starting point. At to the repeatability of measurements, the fellow who owns this site, has developed a technique that gives him highly repeatable results, with the Hornady tool, so it would seem that the task is not to find a better tool, but to learn the technique. Perhaps, if someone were to email him requesting directions, he might instruct us. Just a suggestion...
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
338WinMag,
When I replied to your last two posts the last one thats titled post # 2 only had the title post#2 nothing else followed otherwise my reply would have read differently. I agree with you that whatever I come up with for a base measurement
means nothing to you or anybody else, I however think it is very important to me as say my 1k yard rifle shoots much tighter groups at 1k with a .012 jam then it does at .010 jam so my base measurement is VERY VERY important to me, as the throat erodes that measurement will change but for now it is shooting great. The op was having trouble achieving repeatable results with the hornaday tool, I have learned how to get repeatable results from my tools and so have others and we were just trying to help mike be able to do the same or help him use another method to achieve the same end goal. YOUR opinions and thoughts are every bit as important as mine or anybody elses. I apologize if I took your posts wrong but I took them as we were all wrong and your methods were the only correct one's. I do bid you welcome to the forum and hope you continue to contribute your knowledge to the site as that is what this site is all about,...helping one another.
Wayne.
When I replied to your last two posts the last one thats titled post # 2 only had the title post#2 nothing else followed otherwise my reply would have read differently. I agree with you that whatever I come up with for a base measurement
means nothing to you or anybody else, I however think it is very important to me as say my 1k yard rifle shoots much tighter groups at 1k with a .012 jam then it does at .010 jam so my base measurement is VERY VERY important to me, as the throat erodes that measurement will change but for now it is shooting great. The op was having trouble achieving repeatable results with the hornaday tool, I have learned how to get repeatable results from my tools and so have others and we were just trying to help mike be able to do the same or help him use another method to achieve the same end goal. YOUR opinions and thoughts are every bit as important as mine or anybody elses. I apologize if I took your posts wrong but I took them as we were all wrong and your methods were the only correct one's. I do bid you welcome to the forum and hope you continue to contribute your knowledge to the site as that is what this site is all about,...helping one another.
Wayne.
Mike
I have had same issues with both the Hornady tool and the Sinclair tool.
I resolved the problem by using a Lee collet die.
Simply turn down the die in the press until it provides just enough neck tension to hold a bullet in the case. Seat the bullet long, then chamber the round and carefully extract it. The bolt pressure should press the bullet back into the case to rest against the lands (the reason you seat it long at the start).
Do this a few times carefully and you should see consistent results.
Martin
I have had same issues with both the Hornady tool and the Sinclair tool.
I resolved the problem by using a Lee collet die.
Simply turn down the die in the press until it provides just enough neck tension to hold a bullet in the case. Seat the bullet long, then chamber the round and carefully extract it. The bolt pressure should press the bullet back into the case to rest against the lands (the reason you seat it long at the start).
Do this a few times carefully and you should see consistent results.
Martin
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