bullet runout problems

[bklingle]

Hello All,

I'm relatively new to reloading. I've been at it for about 2 years loading several calibers for hunting and range shooting. With a few thousand rounds under my belt, I'm trying to move from just reloading to "handloading". The current project is a production Rem700 BDL 22-250. 1" 5 round groups at 100yds are typical but I have "the need" to shrink that to .5" or less. I have only a few targets that I got under that .5"mark. That particular load produces my tightest groups but it's not consistent. I've been struggling with bullet run-out problems and I'm not sure what to change in my process or equipment to address the issue. Also I'm not sure how much this is playing into my inconsistencies. I've tried 3 average die sets, no match dies, with varying results. My best combination is a Redding neck sizer and Hornady seater. I've sorted brass, after sizing, to pick only the best at .001-.002 runout for my testing. I've tried rotating the round after partially seating the bullet. Cases are cleaned, sized and mouths chamfered and lubed. I'm still getting horribly inconsistent runout. out of 25 rounds, I might get 2 that are at .001. The majority will be .004 -.006 with the occasional .008 - .01.

Any thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[fdshuster]

bklingle: What brand of brass are you using? If it's typical of some of the factory brass I've seen, and you measured case neck wall thickness with a tubing micrometer, you may see variances of as much as .004" around the circumference of the neck. Easily seen with the naked eye, thick on one side, paper thin on the other.

I've taken runout readings (Sinclair Concintricity Gauge dial indicator) of this companies loaded rounds & found runouts of as much as .012". Spinning the round under the dial indicator & the indicator pointer looks like a windshield wiper going in the rain.

First place to look is the quality of the brass, establish that first, then if that's not a probable cause, start looking elsewhere.

 

[bklingle]

I have not measured wall thickness. I'm currently using Rem brass and yes some of the brass looks bad to the eye. I try to sort these out to be used for plinking or coyote rounds. I don't currently have the tools to measure the wall thickness. I've been considering a box of Lapua brass to compare my results. Thoughts?

This morning, I replaced the decapping and sizing pin in the Hornady FL die. The end result is an improvement on OD concentricity giving me more pieces to start with but my bullet runout is still consistently .004+. I'm measuring just forward of middle of the ogive. Some rounds are bad enough that its very visible to the eye while rotating in the blocks.

As my skill has improved and knowledge increased, I've found that some minor changes have had significant affect on my groups. When I started with this gun, factory ammo was printing 1.5-2" groups. Now I'm consistently inside 1". I'm looking at controlling runout as the next possible place to improve. How much weight should I put on load concentricity?


Thanks
B

 

[fdshuster]

B: Yes, that's the brand that I measured with neck wall differences of .004", and also their loaded rounds at .012".

Actually, with R/0 of as much as .004" I see little or no difference in group size at 100 yds., but that's with 6ppc & 6BR chamberings. Sometimes they do well at 200, sometimes not, so I do spin them all under the Sinclair dial, mark them & use accordingly. Anything over .002" is not used in a match, at any distance.

Having to buy a box of 100 Lapua, just to try would be a costly experiment & if it were I, for the 22-250 I'd try to find 20 or so new cases from someone who may be willing to sell.

Other than the Lapua that I use for everything that it's available for, I have had good experiences with most Winchester in the bulk bags of 50 per bag, at a cost of around $25. Might want to consider giving it a try. Couple years ago when I had a 22-250, I did buy 2 bags of Winchester & I was surprised at the very high quality of that particular lot, and it was the main reason I never bought the Lapua 22-250.

I take my R/O readings on the bullet ogive where it meets the leade in the throat. Sounds like you're close to the same location.

Loaded round runout can be very frustrating & when it becomes a problem I look at the brass first. I believe many of the R/0 troubles can be blamed on the case being the traditional "banana" shape from the time it was drawn.

I've gone so far to prove a point that I've taken known poor quality brass, loaded it using my Wilson seater dies with the Sinclair arbor press, and yup, it's still junk.

 

[jr600yd]

FD is right on. First place I'd look is the brass. Next I'd look at the dies. Some "standard dies" leave something to be desired. It's kind of like a computer, crap in crap out. A trick that may help is to index your cases. Using a concentricity gauge place a mark (I use a Sharpe) on the high side of the case rim. When loading the round make sure the mark will be under a recoil lug. For your remmy that will be either at 12 or 6 o'clock. This trick may or may not help, give it a shot.

 

[Shynloco]

bk,
The name of the game you seek is "consistency" and reducing the "variables" as much as possible. As far as buying Lapua brass, might I suggest you go to Bruno's website as they sell Lapua casings (including 22-250) individually ($.93 per casing) or by the box (100). Essentially, I'd say 20 casing would be enough for you to test with. As far as dies go, I use Redding Dies, but have removed the expander balls from all my dies and use a Sinclair Mandrel Die to size all my necks on all my calibers because I want the tightest groups possible since I shoot strictly paper nowadays (Benchrest style) and no longer hunt. Part of reducing variables is finding which bullet/powder combination and load, your particular rifle likes the best. That takes patients, time and input from others who have found success using certain combinations in certain calibers. HOWEVER, do NOT assume that what works in another rifle will work equally as well in yours. I've taken others' suggested load and found they were a bust in my rifle simply because each rifle is different. Even two rifles coming off the production line (or custom rig for that matter) in sequential order MAY NOT like the same loads. None of this coordination and effort (suggest by the other posters as well) happens overnight. It took me two years (yes I'm a slow learner and not the sharpest pencil in the drawer) to learn more about "precision reloading" and how to go about it. I would also suggest you take a look at books written by Mike Ratigan and Tony Boyer where they explain how they reload and how they became champion shooters. If nothing else, they have some great ideas on reducing variables that each of us strive for in finding that "perfect load" for our rifles. Lastly, know that there are some calibers that are inherently excellent hunting calibers and not so good for precision target shooting. After months and months of trying to get consistently out of a Ruger M77 22-250 Target Grey Model and not getting those .4 & .5's, I finally gave up and she was converted to 6.5 X 55 that now shoots fantastic groups. I say that NOT to try to convince you to change the caliber of your 22-250. If it were me, I get some of those suggested Lapua casing and start all over and loose those expander balls, but not necessarily the die. But I too use Wilson Seater Dies because of their proven excellence in repeatability and precision. More than one way to skin a cat and I sure would give it a try and see what your rifle can produce when you clean up the loading process with the least variation as humanly possible. Good luck and have fun. Hollar if I can be of help in achieving what you seek. Others helped me greatly and without their help, I seriously doubt I could have reached the satisfaction I now get out of my rifles and handloads.

Alex

 

[fdshuster]

Alex: Great suggestion that he try Bruno for individual pieces rather than a bank account busting box of 100. I've seen those ad's & should have thought of that.

 

[nonliberal]

It's always good to eliminate variables but I would venture to say that the runout you describe is not the problem with inconsistency. It is pretty common with factory rifles even with perfect ammunition. A few places to look before you worry too much about runout and sorting cases would be Bedding, Crown, action screw torque, rings and bases, and with a 22-250 seating depth changes from throat erosion.

For your runout do an experiment. Fire a round and then neck size only and reload the case (a Lee collet die is great for this) If you still have runout it is probably your seating die and possibly brass, if you don't have runout then it is for sure your Sizing die. You will often get runout from your sizing die from pushing the shoulders back too far. How far are you pushing them back? You only need .001-.003 with a bolt gun.

 

[Shynloco]

Alex: Great suggestion that he try Bruno for individual pieces rather than a bank account busting box of 100. I've seen those ad's & should have thought of that.

Thx for the kudos. But I've actually learned the hard way of wasting money until I hooked up with Lester's shop. Between his place, Sinclair and Powder Valley Inc, I keep pretty well supplied with some pretty nice stuff at a reasonable price. One of my boys recently moved back to Phoenix anyway so now I have two excuses to head to Phoenix and of course, visit the "Candy Store" aka: Bruno's.

 

[DennisH]

What bullet, primer, powder are you using.

What it the twist on your 22-250

Which is your perfered bullet your trying to perfect?

 

[wapiti25]

The Lee collet neck sizer can be purchaced as a single die for $17-$20. Imperial dry neck sizing lube will reduce the drag if you are pulling an expander thru the neck. I shoot IMR4895, Wolf primers, with 55gr bullets in a 22-250. Don't forget to try different primers in the match or Br type. I have tested primers in several guns and the Wolf's beat the others. Get a box of match grade bullets such as Barts or Berger. I have had real good groups with 52 and 53gr bullets in several 22 cals. I like to try 53gr flatbased bullets, some barrels do not shoot boattails as good as flat bases. Good Luck and small groups

 

[bklingle]

Thanks to all.

I will probably cut to the chase and order a few pieces of Lapua brass just to satisfy my curiosity. I have plenty standard brass for the varmints.

As for the Dies, after replacing the decapping and expander in my Hornady FL set, it is producing brass with little to no runout. That of course is on the OD of the neck. The hornady seater is doing the best job but It's still not great.

I do understand that this isn't a target rifle or even the best caliber for punchin' holes. I like the round for the varmints and I'm hoping to gain as much knowledge and skill before moving up to a more costly rifle/caliber. I'll make my mistakes here...at least some of them It's come a long way it and I shoot better than a lot around me but I'm not yet convinced that the gun can't be better and I know I can and improve on my part at the loading bench and on the trigger.

I have worked up several loads using many combinations of powder, primer, and bullets. I've found some average performers, some HORRIBLE loads and a couple that work pretty well. This gun likes the bullets seated .015 -.02 off the lands. 40-52gr bullets have worked the best with the 1:14 twist. Best groups to date have been with 50gr Seirra sp bullets on 37.0gr of H380 and BR2 primers.

I don't currently have the tools to measure how much the should is bumped back. I had hoped to minimize by neck sizing.

The action is pillar and glass bedded. The pressure point has been removed from the stock allowing the barrel to float. This was all done to stop shot stringing. My POI is now consistent and doesn't change much with the weather or barrel temp. I have found the best groups are with the barrel good and warm. Groups tighten up after 15 rounds or so allowing 5-10 minutes between 5rnd sessions. A squeaky clean bore doesn't work well at all.

I hope I've responded to everyone's comments. Play time has been limited by this silly JOB thing I've been doin

 

[DennisH]

I have had real good groups with 52 and 53gr bullets in several 22 cals.

Plus one . . . I have good luck with both, 52 grain Berger's, and 53 A-Max's!

 

[jr600yd]

Sounds like you're on the right track. A good trigger job or replacement will really help tighten up those groups.

 

[tome]

use an O ring under the die..it allows the die to align with the case.i shoot 22-250 and it can be hard to find the right combination. a +1 on the lee collet die ..i use that and an RCBS competition seating die..i only neck size ..sound like your rifle likes to shoot when the barrel if fowled..i have a 25-06 like that. i shoot it till the accuracy falls off and then i clean it. clean it shoots poorly..dirty..clover leafs..everything touching.. good brass makes a big difference..ww748 an a 52 gr amax ww lr primer shoots the best in my 1-12 tw ..good luck

 

[Elkbane]

bklingle,
You've received some good advice above, especially about trying some brass that has good neck wall uniformity to get some control on runout. IMO, there just isn't a die-based cure for non-uniform necks. If you use your sizer without an expander button (or an undersized one), you just drive the variability to the inside of the neck, and when you seat a bullet, the base of the bullet will "follow the hole" - you end up with high runout on the loaded round. Neck truning is about the only cure to even up the necks, but I'd say it's just not worth the effort for a factory chamber and Remington brass. I'd try some norma (or Nosler - same) brass before I went and tried neck turning the Remingtons. I've even had decent luck with a 22-250 using unturned Winchester brass.....

Re' your rifle, once you get your runout problem cured - note that some times sported barrels (I'm assuming sporter - you posted it as a BDL) actuall do well with a little upward pressure in the fore-end, rather than free floated. Having a bedded stock already is a good platform for testing that. Just take a folded business card and insert between the barrel and stock at the fore-end. Shoot a group, then start sliding the card back toward the chamber and shoot another. You may find a sweet spot in there where the barrel finds some harmony. I've done this before for a friend on an especially stubborn Ruger and found a sweet spot just about where most manufacturers normally put sling swivel studs...... Once I found it, I marked the spot and bedded a 1/2" wide pressure tab into the stock at that location and it was good to go from then on. Doesn't cost much to try it....
Elkbane

 

[bklingle]

Replacing the trigger was the first improvement I made to the gun. I used a Timney drop in. Night and day difference!

 

[bklingle]

Elkbane

I was reluctant to remove the factory pressure point from the stock to float the barrel but I did that when I pillared and bedded the action. I was having issues with shot stringing and my POI changing with weather changes. The changes I've made has changed the gun significantly. I no longer have significant weather related changes to my POI and stringing is gone. As you've suggested, I've read where others have benefited with some pressure on the barrel. I will likely experiment with it after I refine my loading process. My thought is that with the pillars and bedding, I have consistent torque on the action screws regardless of changes in the wood stock. The forend pressure may not change as much with temp changes.

 

[Elkbane]

Yes,that's the conunbrum I was dealing with too (with the Ruger). You can't do a proper job of bedding with the pressure pad in place. Once you have the action properly stabilized, then you need to move on to the next things that get the rifle shooting it's best. And it may not have anything to do with stock stability relative to weather, moisture, etc.

Bedding is about taking stress out of the action and making sure the mating of the stock and action are the same shot-to shot. On an unbedded rifle, you can get POI changes just by handling or transporting the rifle. Pressure on the barrel, IMO is more about optimizing barrel harmonics. I usually view it as a last resort, but sometimes it works. Worth a try...
Elkbane

 

[LongRanger]

After attending to all the earlier worthy suggestions you may still have a runout issue, one that is easier to correct....by just pushing your loaded bullet sideways with your fingers to realign it in the neck.

The pressure bearing ring at the base of your flat base bullets can be a factor since its diameter is larger than the bullet's main bearing surface. This can allow the bullet to "wallow around" more or less loosely in even the most perfect neck. In even the best seaters, like my Wilson, I know that these bullets don't always go into the neck perfectly square and check every one after seating and adjust as necessary to get runout back to less than 001. I am NOT recommending so much pressure that the neck itself is distorted.

Frank B.