Bullet run-out, how to fix it?

[IA_shooter]

I agree, knowledge is power and this site has a wealth of knowledge I'm trying to learn all I can.

I am getting a set of Redding competition dies and saying goodbye to the RCBS dies.

I did order one of the RCBS neck turners so hopefully it will do well for me. If not I may try another brand in the near future.

So once I get to using my Lapua brass, the Redding dies and get my necks turned, my cases weighed/seperated, bullets trimmed/pointed and sorted/seperated by ogive, etc I should be good to go, right? LOL ;D

By this time next year I'll probably decide my .243 built on a Savage action isn't the best I can do and will probably end up with one of those high dollar actions, huh? This is an addiction isn't it?

If I only knew what I was getting myself into when I decided I just wanted to shoot a few competitions for fun, huh?

 

[tjtjwdad]

WRT to bullet runout, I ad an aissue a couple of years back and the issue was the press itself. Who would have thought but there was enough play in the pins to cause it. Picked up a Redding single stage and haven't regretted it at all.

HTH

 

[IA_shooter]

I received my RCBS Hand Held neck trimmer tonight, went to put it together only to find that the hole to thread the cutter into hadn't been tapped/threaded from the factory! (Wherever that might be.) :-[

Now I have to mess with sending it back to Midway. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise. :-\

Ok, so now I need to decide which neck turning tool/brand to buy. Give me your top choices guys. I want a GOOD one. I don't mind paying for quality especially since I tried the "save a buck" route on the RCBS unit. Not going down that road again.

 

[BigDMT]

I received my RCBS Hand Held neck trimmer tonight, went to put it together only to find that the hole to thread the cutter into hadn't been tapped/threaded from the factory! (Wherever that might be.) :-[

Now I have to mess with sending it back to Midway. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise. :-\

Ok, so now I need to decide which neck turning tool/brand to buy. Give me your top choices guys. I want a GOOD one. I don't mind paying for quality especially since I tried the "save a buck" route on the RCBS unit. Not going down that road again.

I tried to tell you that RCBS is junk :-\ I only advise from experience. But unfortunately you didn't take that advice to heart and got exactly what you paid for. It's a frustrating lesson to learn, trust me I know.

Might I suggest the 21st Century Shooting cutting tool kit. Its a little spendy for the whole set up, but it will be the last you ever buy. Very nice and extremely precise. Just call John using the contact info on his website, tell him your caliber and he'll get you all set up

 

[IA_shooter]

I was looking at the 21st Century tool earlier. I might call John tomorrow.

 

[BoydAllen]

Although I think that the question was mostly rhetorical, I will explain why using an expander ball is not always a bad idea with a bushing die. This is based on experience, not I already know what will happen so I don't have to actually try it.

First of all, the myth of the inherent evil of the expander ball is like some urban legend that is based on bad information that came from a genuine lack of observational skills. It is not the expander that creates the problem, but rather the undersized ID of the neck portion of the die, that reduces the ID of the neck much more than is required, with the result that expanding the neck back to its desired diameter requires excessive pull on the case that exceeds the yield strength of the brass in the shoulder of the case, which being of asymmetrical thickness yields unevenly, resulting in a case necks being cocked in relation to case bodies.

If the ID of the neck portion of the die is the right size, so that the passage of the expander ball is barely felt by the press operator, the amount of pull of on the case stays within the elastic limit of the brass, and the neck is not cocked relative to the case body. In short the case is not made crooked by the expander ball being pulled through the sized neck.

Now we come to the situation for which using an expander in a bushing die may be indicated.... when unturned cases are being sized. In this situation the bushing makes the OD of the neck round, and whatever irregularities exist are pushed to the inside, resulting in a less round ID of variable average dimension, and with that more variation in seating force.

On the other hand, if a bushing is chosen so as not to over size the neck, while still being small enough to make the expander do a little "work" the IDs of necks will be rounder, there average diameter more uniform as will bullet seating force.

Just in case you think that expanding necks is somehow detrimental to accuracy for other unspecified and unmeasurable reasons, I will relate to you that a very experienced and accomplished 1,000 yard shooter that I know, and whose name you would recognize, uses an expander die as his last step in neck sizing, in conjunction with a set of mandrels that increase in diameter in increments of .0005". He feels that he gets a more uniform neck this way, and you know how picky 1,000 yard shooters are.

To round this up, if you want a different amount of neck tension than your factory diameter expander will produce , you can polish it down to the required diameter, or reduce a larger one down to a larger one.

 

[Joe C]

Boyd,

Wow! Thanks for a great explanation of the subject. There are a number of folks on here that I really enjoy reading for various reasons, you are one of them. And this post is an example of why.

 

[BigDMT]

And who is this 1K shooter Mr. Allen? If he is not a current world record holder, I don't have my sights set on his methods

 

[BoydAllen]

Not in the business of publishing names without asking first. Copy who you like. I was just giving some information, and I will offer this in addition. Once, when I needed to load for a .22-250 varmint rifle, and the only dies that I had were one piece, with an expander ball, and not doing some kind of expanding would have had the necks too small, I compared the runout of cases that I had sized with the ball removed, and then expanded with a mandrel in an expander die, (as one would before neck turning) with cases that were done with the expander ball left in the die. In both cases, the inside of the necks were lubed. The concentricity using the mandrel was much better. As an aside, if I can test an idea, I usually do. I like coming up with new things, and this never happens if one is spending too much time looking around at what others are doing. Of course I always recommend that new shooters copy the best, but at some point, if anything new is to be discovered, one needs to do some cut and try to see what works. A recent example is trying something that I had read about to keep my rear bag from being moved during recoil. I had never seen anyone actually do it, but I found a local source for full sheets of sanding screen (150 grit) and it worked very well on my wood topped DF planks) portable bench. I will always have a sheet in my range kit.

 

[xs hedspace]

I use a Lee collet die for sizing the neck, and a Wilson seater. My ammo is usually max. .002" runout, with an occasional .004-.005" which I mark for foulers, and sighters at 800 yd line. My 1000 yd ammo is the sorted .001" runout stuff. When I have to bump the shoulder, I rotate the case 180 deg, and bump again.

 

[BoydAllen]

As I have written several times, for unturned necks and factory chambers, a two step sizing procedure using a collet die, followed by a properly set up body die, will give some of the best results obtainable, with any off the shelf equipment, including bushing dies.

 

[Eddie Vializ]

I use a Whidden custom die for FL sizing and leave the expander ball in. (.284 win) I have noticed after 3 or 4 sizings the expander comes out with significantly more resistance than before. A light went on in my head (quite dim) and I felt it was hanging up on the donut that has formed at the neck shoulder junction. I may have to run a carbide mandrel from my K&M turner into the neck and confirm this. My bullets are seated way past the donut as to not interfere.

 

[Eddie Vializ]

Run out on the cases is perfect but run out on seated bullets is excessive I noted recently. I've been winning my fair share of matches but was wondering if the Hornady concentricity gauge may aid in realigning the seated rounds for extra measure. (I seat with a Wilson in line seater)

 

[47WillysGuy]

Even if the bullet is pushed to a 0 runout, it’s still not parallel to the case neck. If the case neck isn’t square to the bore, the bullet won’t be square to the chamber and lands.

Also, once the bullet is pushed to 0, the case neck is not round anymore, it’s oblong.

Turn the necks to a consistent thickness, size fired cases with a body die and the case necks with Lee collet die, you should have an average case neck runout of 0.001 - 0.002”.