Bullet Pointing

[dkhunt14]

Percent reduction in the meplat diameter has been cited in many threads. I plan to target a 40% reduction in my next samples, providing it does not alter the bullet’s BTO offset dimension as you noted.

The reduction amount changes from different kinds of bullets. The caliber, how big the hole is, the jacket used and probably a few other things determine how much. I prefer not to change the bearing length at all. Matt

 

[Sheldon N]

Was it worth the one percent gain? Matt

I guess I'll find out!

One caveat, for the PRS game I do value reduced wind drift perhaps slightly ahead of ultimately smallest possible group size. Wind misses for us is where we can make up points.

 

[mikeeg02]

The above is a point that is extremely well taken. It's hard to put a value on the contributions a Matt Kline makes on this forum. To take it one step further, We should all be reminded that there are potential new shooters reading these threads and we are being judged by the tone of our posts. It would be a shame to lose a new shooter because of "snarky" comments.

I agree. I understand sometimes it's not intentional, and it happens. But when you're asking for information and its given to you, rather than dissect and attempt to discredit their free information, people need to take it as an opportunity to test their theories and suggestions themself. It's frustrating to watch, and not that I'm anyone in particular, but I test a lot to the best of my abilities. And it makes me want to post and offer suggestions less. I cant imagine what those guys think.

 

[dkhunt14]

I guess I'll find out!

One caveat, for the PRS game I do value reduced wind drift perhaps slightly ahead of ultimately smallest possible group size. Wind misses for us is where we can make up points.

With a really good heavy gun and a light gun, I shot 5 targets with each gun unpointed and pointed. That is 10 ten shot targets each. The pointed bullets were pointed to the max and changed the bearing some. I almost guarantee the fliers that resulted would cost more misses then the little percent of wind drift difference. Both guns shot 2 in 10 shots as fliers. Now this was shot in 1000 yard BR with two really good guns and it clearly showed. It made vertical with guns that didnt shoot hardly any vertical.

Now this was out first attempt with pointing and was years ago. We have since learned to point them less. Never saw any wind drift diffence from overpointed to being right. To test the difference load 5 cases with overpointed and five cases done right. Color 5 blue and five red and shoot them round robin off a bench. Shoot as fast as you accurately can and the colors will show you the difference in wind drift. Matt

 

[Boatschool02]

When someone lists a percentage "improvement," how is that applied to the BC?
EX: a 0.295 G7 BC bullet properly trimmed and pointed for an anticipated 3% increase would yield what?
Thanks,

 

[Sheldon N]

Now this was out first attempt with pointing and was years ago. We have since learned to point them less. Never saw any wind drift diffence from overpointed to being right. To test the difference load 5 cases with overpointed and five cases done right. Color 5 blue and five red and shoot them round robin off a bench. Shoot as fast as you accurately can and the colors will show you the difference in wind drift. Matt

Thanks for the example, that is good info. Do you happen to have a picture of what the point on your current bullet looks like? Curious to see how far past that I've gone.

For reference, here's 5 bullets grabbed at random from my current lot of recent 105 Hybrids. You can see some of the OAL variation in there based on how much the tip got pointed.

 

[dkhunt14]

Thanks for the example, that is good info. Do you happen to have a picture of what the point on your current bullet looks like? Curious to see how far past that I've gone.

For reference, here's 5 bullets grabbed at random from my current lot of recent 105 Hybrids. You can see some of the OAL variation in there based on how much the tip got pointed.

I dont have a pic and I am in Phila for wifes treatment. It will vary from bullet type and caliber. I would measure the bearing and keep going till bearing length starts to move. I would then back it up a little and check again, you want as much as you can get without deforming the bullet.

Its hard to tell from a picture but it looks like you are at max or close. Another thing i do is pick the same OAL bullet so they are the same. That is hard to do with some lots of bullets and get alot alike. I shoot 1000 yard BR and looking for the ultimate in accuracy for group, but score counts with us too. Matt

 

[Mulligan]

When someone lists a percentage "improvement," how is that applied to the BC?
EX: a 0.295 G7 BC bullet properly trimmed and pointed for an anticipated 3% increase would yield what?
Thanks,

About .304

.295 + .00885= .30385

CW
Edit
This increase is not as important to me as the uniformity
CW

 

[mikeeg02]

This increase is not as important to me as the uniformity

That's my goal. The Uniformity.

 

[Sheldon N]

I dont have a pic and I am in Phila for wifes treatment. It will vary from bullet type and caliber. I would measure the bearing and keep going till bearing length starts to move. I would then back it up a little and check again, you want as much as you can get without deforming the bullet.

Its hard to tell from a picture but it looks like you are at max or close. Another thing i do is pick the same OAL bullet so they are the same. That is hard to do with some lots of bullets and get alot alike. I shoot 1000 yard BR and looking for the ultimate in accuracy for group, but score counts with us too. Matt

Thanks Matt, appreciate you weighing in. Hope all goes well with your wife's treatment.

Score for us in PRS is simply hit or miss on a steel plate, so I've got a bit of fudge factor as long as my vertical dispersion at distance is <1 MOA. The challenge comes when you are told that it's your turn to shoot NOW and you have to send all 10 shots in a 90 second window, no sighters no wind flags and often pretty rugged terrain making the wind do unexpected things. The plates are pretty generous size but when your wind drift can vary from shot to shot by several feet, anything you can do to reduce that last couple inches of wind drift to catch an edge hit helps your score.

 

[Laurie]

Its hard to tell from a picture but it looks like you are at max or close. Another thing i do is pick the same OAL bullet so they are the same. That is hard to do with some lots of bullets and get alot alike. I shoot 1000 yard BR and looking for the ultimate in accuracy for group, but score counts with us too. Matt

Ha! Ha! I've photographed a lot of meplats for Target Shooter magazine features and it is really difficult to get a resulting pic that shows much difference between the 'before' and 'after'. Pick the pair up and look at them with the Mk1 eyeball and they look a lot more differentiated. That includes pics taken with a very good quality (Canon) macro lens on my DSLR.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ha! Ha! I've photographed a lot of meplats for Target Shooter magazine features and it is really difficult to get a resulting pic that shows much difference between the 'before' and 'after'. Pick the pair up and look at them with the Mk1 eyeball and they look a lot more differentiated. That includes pics taken with a very good quality (Canon) macro lens on my DSLR.

I agree with Laurie...hard to obtain a good image. Nonetheless, your eye can tell when they're overpointed. Less is more. If you're just starting out, plan on practicing with a few until you get them where you want. You might even want to purposely overpoint one or two, just so you know what to expect. Any that are overpointed during the learning process can be used as foulers, so they're not wasted.

 

[johara1]

When I set up to point I measure the bullet at the shank and the pressure ring to the .0001 the over all length to the .001 and I measure the bearing surface and set it on 0. I start to point a little at a time and watch it grow in length, when it stops growing, I remeasure everything to make sure nothing moved and re check the bearing surface length, if nothing moved you are good to go. If it did throw it away and start over, There is no guess work to it, you can not do it by eye..... jim

These are done on pre sorted batches and Trimmed and are in .001 in length or less....

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Pointing does nothing for group size but it increases bc which accounts for the rise.

At 100 this may be true. And no Im not talking about BC or cutting wind better.

 

[johara1]

Dusty, I pointed Barts 80 gr. BT. and they shot an .020 at 100 , may not help, but it sure doesn't hurt. I would guess if you do it correctly or not is what matters.... jim

 

[mikeeg02]

At 100 this may be true. And no Im not talking about BC or cutting wind better.

I agree with that. I know differences in BC between two of the same bullet will print vertical at 1k.

Edit: that's why above I said I started pointing for consistency rather than the BC increase. If the BC increases that's just a bonus

 

[Laurie]

Edit: that's why above I said I started pointing for consistency rather than the BC increase. If the BC increases that's just a bonus

Back when I was very interested in the 223 with 90gn VLDs for F-TR, several US competitors told me they'd found pointing essential in reducing long-range elevations with these finicky bullets. There was a retired homicide detective - his name is on the tip of my tongue, but I just cannot recall it - who'd used optical comparators a lot in his police work and found one a vital accessory in getting sufficiently consistent points on his 224 90s. (Conversely, pointing didn't work well for me with these bullets - it improved BC as evidenced by higher strikes on the paper at long range, but reduced consistency. )

 

[mikeeg02]

I think there's a balance of trimming and pointing. But the elevation difference is pretty easy to test. Only trim a few and shoot them. They will be lower on paper, in my case 8"-10". Point a few and shoot a group, they will print higher than your reference group. In my case 6"-8" from reference group. (Everything loaded the same for each group)

I think you also may find that you could have to adjust your established load a little after trimming/pointing. Your load may of previously compensated for some of the dispersion. In my case the pointing really just brought the load together. But that's just my theory.

 

[Joe Salt]

Sheldon I have a 309 bushing I use, I push the bullets through with my fingers. I have found If you over point you will not be able to push the bullet back through the bushing. Saves a lot of measuring.Make sure you also measure OAL of each bullet and separate them. You may have to adjust the die slightly for different length. Just point just enough to just close the point but not all the way. I know people like to make the look perfect but its not going to happen. Then when your done separate by length and put together in bags or drawers and label.

Joe Salt

 

[johara1]

Back when I was very interested in the 223 with 90gn VLDs for F-TR, several US competitors told me they'd found pointing essential in reducing long-range elevations with these finicky bullets. There was a retired homicide detective - his name is on the tip of my tongue, but I just cannot recall it - who'd used optical comparators a lot in his police work and found one a vital accessory in getting sufficiently consistent points on his 224 90s. (Conversely, pointing didn't work well for me with these bullets - it improved BC as evidenced by higher strikes on the paper at long range, but reduced consistency. )

Maybe you were not doing it right, if it quits growing you had better stop or you make junk. Over all length better be the same or you make junk..... ..jim