• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Bullet choice for a 6.5x55 AI

Building a 6.5x55AI for 1000yard Benchrest and Fclass. Got the Krieger HV 8.5 blank in the other day. The McMillan Tooley MBR stock will be here tomorrow (hopefully, with the weather). Already have a BAT 3L action. Have all kinds of powder to mess with. This is my first 6.5 cal so I don't have any bullets. Starting from scratch. Looking at the 140 Amax, 140 Berger and the 139 Lapua. Any opinions or recommendation? Obviously I know that every barrel might like something different. Just looking for some others experiences to see if there is anyone out there with same or similar equipment that has experience with any of these bullets. I mean if 9 out of 10 are shooting the Lapua bullets then I might start there. If there is no obvious trends then I guess I will have to get one of each and go from there.

Thanks,
John
 
I wanted my previous 260AI barrel to shoot the Berger VLD's but it wouldn't no matter what I did but it loved the 139 Lapuas. My new Shilen Sel match loves them, so I guess pick 2 or so good bullets and try them.
I started w/ the VLD's w/ a 10 thou jam and a reasonable powder charge and messed w/ powder 1st then seating depth.
With the Lapua's, I started w/ them at the lands w/ a reasonable powder charge and adjusted seating depth- 10 thou off the lands, etc.
 
The Lapua 139gn Scenar is very popular in the UK and has taken many long-range BR competitions and F-Class matches in appropriate cartridges. It was also much cheaper than the American bullets here until recently, but probably not now. It has a rather lower BC than some competitors though. Bryan Litz gives it a G7 BC of 0.285 compared to 0.327 for the JLK VLD, 0.301 for the 142gn Sierra MK, 0.299 for the 140 A-Max, 0.303 for the Berger BT Long-Range, and 0.313 for the Berger VLD.

Run them though a G7 ballistics program and assuming you're getting around 2,900 fps MV with the .260AI, the VLDs, especially the JLK, have a noticeable edge in reduced wind deflection at 1,000yd, and at the other end of the scale the Lapua and 140gn Nosler CC lose out compared to the trio in the middle with BCs around .300. Put crudely, the VLDs move around a half-MOA less at this range in the standard 10 mph crosswind and the Lapua and Nosler around a half-MOA more compared to the middle performers.

But ............ as always, what your barrel likes and how fast you can drive individual bullets are the key issues and may well determine what you end up using rather than ballistic coefficients.

Laurie,
York, England
 
I had a 6.5 x 55 AI built for the same reasons as you. I started shooting my 6.5 x 55 AI this January and just recently have finished fireforming 300 pieces of brass. I used 48 g H4831SC under 139 Scenars and they shot fantastic.

Load development for the AI took me a half day at the range and there was a sweet spot from 50.4 to 50.6 in fact all 6 of the bullets in this range were within 0.5 MOA of each other at 300 meters. I settled on 50.6 and this seems to get me 3050 fps, it started to snow when I had my chrony set up. I shot a 20 shot match at 300 with the 50.6 load and I shot clean with 11 X not fantastic but the vertical dispersion was less than I had shot at 300 so I think the load will work out well.

Overall, I am extremely happy with this chambering and wish you luck also.
 
Anybody have a good explanation in laymans terms of the difference between G7 and G1 BC? The Lapua 139 has a second highest G1 BC but the lowest G7 BC. Which one would you put the most weight on? the G7 or the G1 BC? I believe I can't go wrong with any of them. I would like to go ahead and order 500 or so but trying to get the best bang for my buck if you will. I really like the looks of the JLK but judging by what I have read the wait could be long to get them I would hate to find a really good load for them and then not be able to get any.

John
 
I have JLK 140 in stock my shop . 150 per box have a partial box if you would like to try them 50 Ct. 20.00 plus shipping .
www.therifler.com
 
John,

two issues here - G1 v G7 and manufacturer quoted BC v Bryan Litz's data based on actual testing over the best part of 1,000yd.

BCs comprise two elements: sectional density which is determined solely by bullet weight and calibre, so all 140gn 6.5s have the same SD, while the 139 Lapua is marginally down and the 142gn Sierra is marginally up. The other element is bullet shape and how much drag that generates. This is quantified by a 'form factor' that gives the drag in relation to the numerical value 1.000 which is generated by a 'standard projectile' shape. As this is drag related, the lower the value the better. BC is the ratio of form factor to SD, ie the higher the SD and the lower the form factor, the higher the BC.

The above applies to G1 and G7 BCs. The difference is the shape of the standard bullet. The G1 reference standard uses a projectile shape that looks like a 180gn .30 round-nose soft-point; the G7 uses a long and sharp-nosed boat-tail projectile that looks rather like a modern hollow-point match bullet.

So we get two different sets of BC values that are not directly related, that is you can't say that a BC of 0.5 automatically becomes 0.3 or anything, and you have to use appropriate ballistics programs or tables.

The 'problem' with G1 BCs is that they are very velocity dependant. This isn't a problem for short-range shooting, and G1 programs like Sierra Infinity don't give that much difference in remaining velocities, drop and wind drift at 600yd. But, it's a different story beyond that range and especially at 1,000. Anybody who shoots .308W at long range knows that there must be something not right with most sets of ballistics tables as bullets that are supposed to be comfortably supersonic at 1,000yd at a particular MV, often aren't. Hence, Fullbore / Target Rifle or F/TR shooters using 155s tell you to ensure a minimum MV of 2,950 fps, better still 3,000 fps or more for 1,000yd.

Sierra has partly got around this problem by quoting three, and for some recently introduced models, five BC values in velocity bands. Infinity applies those values selectively in its compuations. Most companies quote a single value, and they don't tell you at what velocity. Usually it's the highest the bullet will ever fly at because that gives the highest ('best') BC. The trouble with that is your 155gn thirty might not be given 3,200 fps in your rifle, and it loses speed as soon as it exits the barrel, so that value only applies for a few inches of flight anyway.

While the 'real' G1 BC value might vary by 15 or so percent along a 1,000yd flight as it slows, the G7 version is far less velocity affected and only varies by two or three percent. So, you can sensibly quote an average BC and it'll work at 1,000yd almost as well as at 500yd or 300yd. So, G7 BCs are much better for the long-range target shooter.

But .............. if the quoted BC values, of whatever type, are accurate and calculated in the same manner, their order in terms of efficiency should more or less apply to the other method too. That assumes there is a fair difference in those values as the relative ranking of two very similar designs might reverse as G7 compared to G1, say. But if the 139 Scenar's BC is outstandingly better than the others as a G1, it should be at or near the top of the pile as a G7 too.

This is where the other and equally useful bit of Bryan Litz's work comes in - the long-range testing. We don't know how the manufacturers calculate them. Some use short-range velocity loss tests, some use a computer generated BC based on the bullet shape and SD. Sierra's BCs are conservative compared to other makers as well as being banded, so the average of the several G1 BCs quoted for its new 0.308" Palma MK #2156 come out almost identical to Bryan's experimentally derived long-range G1 BC.

All Bryan's results are based on the same method using sectional flight times over equally spaced audio sensors that use the supersonic 'crack' to record the bullet passing over, and which measure the times (which translates to velocities) over a long range. He also quotes G1 average BCs and the 139gn Scenar comes out at an average of 0.557 compared to 0.588 for the 142gn SMK, and VLD values over 0.6 (.612 Berger and .639 JLK).

Anybody interested in this subject, or who shoots long-range should buy a copy of his book 'Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting'. It not only explains external ballistics better than any other book IMHO, but it is full of practical stuff as to how to make use of the information.

Laurie
 
Laurie, Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand it a little better now. I will have to be on the lookout for Bryans book. I have seen several references to it on this forum.
 
A note regarding the BC of the Lapua 139gr Scenars. I use the Whidden pointing tool and reduce the meplats from a average measured 0.076" down to a pointed 0.060". Thats a 16 thou reduction in the diameter of the meplat and that is smaller than the Berger VLD 140gr at 0.062" and also the Sierra 142 MK at 0.065".

The dimensional uniformity of the Scenars is really good and I dont need to trim before pointing which makes it a simple one step operation. From firing hundreds of the 139gr projectiles the data I get is the BC is approx 0.300 which is a considerable increase over its original 0.285 as measured by Litz. If you like the Scenars for their great accuracy then I recommend pointing them and the BC advantage of the Bergers and Sierras suddenly disappears.

Ian
 
The dimensional uniformity of the Scenars is really good and I dont need to trim before pointing which makes it a simple one step operation. From firing hundreds of the 139gr projectiles the data I get is the BC is approx 0.300 which is a considerable increase over its original 0.285 as measured by Litz. If you like the Scenars for their great accuracy then I recommend pointing them and the BC advantage of the Bergers and Sierras suddenly disappears.

Ian


Ian,

that's a really good point (ouch! pun not intended.) Like I said, the 139 Scenar has been a star performer in UK long-range shooting, and it undoubtedly is a really well designed and made bullet. The focus has shifted off it and competitor 6.5s here in recent years to a certain extent with the switch to 7mm in long-range F-Open and growing interest in the smaller 6.5s such as .260 Rem and 6.5X47L loaded with 107-130gn bullets. This has moved the spotlight away from 6.5-284 except for 'Factory Sporter' class benchrest where the Savage 12 F in 6.5-284 is still the rifle/cartride to beat.

It's easy to get too concerned about ballistics in isolation. I often feel pretty 'old-fashioned' nowadays by advising people to start with a Sierra MK in various cartridges as they're usually very load-tolerant.

Some of the bullets that I do find really impressive now are the recently introduced Berger Target BT Long-Range designs with their tangent ogive shapes, but with BCs usually right up with the VLDs. So far, I've only gained experience with the 0.308" 185gn L-R in .308W and couldn't find any 140gn 6.5s, but they're probably available here now. The 185 thirty is a most impressive bullet and may turn out to be the oustanding bullet for .308W where there are no weight restrictions. I found it easy to get very small groups and 2,800 fps MV out of a 30" Bartlein which makes for an impressive ballistic combination.

Laurie
 
I am going to get a couple boxes of the JLKs, Bergers and Lapuas and try them out and see what works best. I will try the JLKs first as they have the highest BCs. Laurie, I here ya on the Bergers. A couple years ago I switched to the BT Targets in 6mm for my 6mm BRX after a bout with VLDs blowing up before they were getting to the target. I have really had good luck with the 6mm 108s. This is my second year doing this benchrest thing. I did 2 years of FClass prior. I am still learning this reading the wind thing and wanted something a little more forgiving. One of the ranges I shoot at (Whitehorse, WV) is pretty unique with the way the wind blows. All the wind flags are normally all pointing in different directions. It sits in a horseshoe shaped canyon and the wind swirls pretty bad.

TDU, I have the benefit of having a retired, gifted machinist for a father who like to build stuff. He has come up with his own version of a bullet pointing system so I will get into that also to try and improve on the bullet points. His initial reports are promising.

John
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,804
Messages
2,203,334
Members
79,110
Latest member
miles813
Back
Top