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Bullet bearing surface, seating depth, doughnuts.....

A blanked primer looks like a round hole was punched in the primer, as if it had been done with a die and punch. It can happen for a variety of reasons, but if your case does not have excessive "headspace" in its chamber, the firing pin spring is not weak, the tip of the firing pin has a proper shape, and protrusion, the clearance between diameter of the firing pin tip, and the hole in the bold face is not too great, you should not have that problem.

Not all bullets have pressure rings. Many do not. The way that you detect one is to measure the bullet's "shank" so that the micrometer (that reads to .0001") does not contact the heel of the bullet or in the case of a BT the transition point between the shank and the BT. That measurement is compared to one taken over either of those areas being careful not to put too much pressure on the mic. when taking the reading, and a pressure ring will show up as the difference between the two measurements. Because I mostly shot Sierra bullets before I got into custom hand made bullets, such as are used for short range benchrest competition, I did not think that any factory bullets had pressure rings, but later, when I checked a variety of factory BTs I found that some brands did in fact have pressure rings.

As to your AI and doughnuts, when you fire form your cases, some of the neck brass is pulled back into the top of the shoulder, so as long as you are careful about setting your FL die for shoulder bump, and your die does not reduce the diameter of your cases excessively during firing , you are unlikely to ever experience the problem. The other factor is shoulder angle, an area where AIs have an an advantage. When a regular '06 is fired, because of its relatively shallow shoulder angle, the combination of the force of the firing pin strike, and the primer explosion's force against the bottom of the primer pocket, force the case a little way into the chamber, and creating a temporary (if the pressure of the load is not too light) increase in the clearance between the case head and the bolt face. As the pressure from the powder's burning comes into play, the body of the case expands and clings to the chamber wall. With further increase in pressure, the case will stretch just above the solid head, until the head comes into contact with the bolt face. One of the advantages of the sharper shoulder angle of your AI is that it prevents most of this from happening, acting as a more effective stop from the case being forced forward during firing. This also makes the case length more stable, so there is less tendency for shoulder brass to be forced into the base of the neck.

I have a 6mmPPC FL die of a type that is no longer in production. It has inserts in the base that allow excellent control of just how much the base of a fired case is sized. Typically, the way that I set it up,it is less than .001. The die does not change the shoulder diameter of fired brass, it can be set to bump shoulders just like an ordinary FL die, and the necks of the cases are sized by an interchangeable bushing. Because I watch shoulder bump so carefully, and the body of fired cases is reduced so little, case growth is very small. On the other hand, for my factory rifles that I use factory dies for, the amount of case body diameter reduction is generally quite a lot, and even though I do not bump shoulders excessively, cases grow in length at a prodigious rate. The brass that I have to keep trimming off of the end of the necks is there because it is force up the case by the sizing process. If a particular brass manufacturer's brass is thicker at the top of the shoulder than a the base of the neck, eventually that thicker brass will be forced, by repeated sizing, up into the neck.

If a chamber has a relatively close fit between the necks of loaded rounds, and its neck, the formation of a doughnut, in combination with the bullet shank being in that area can create an interference fit with the chamber neck. This will cause an increase in peak pressure because it will take more pressure to move the bullet forward when the rifle is fired, and if the load is already on the warm side, an over pressure situation can occur, which may result in some sort of primer failure. I say may because that will depend on the conditions that I described in my discussion of blanked primers.

Years ago, I made a reloading mistake, and overloaded a .30-06 model 03 Springfield to the point where the primer fell out of the case when the bolt opened. The case was neck sized, so that there was no extra clearance head to shoulder, the firing pin had been replaced with one that was the heaviest available, the firing pin tip shape was perfect, as was its fit in the hole in the bolt face, the edges of the hole in the bolt face were not rounded, and the firing pin assembly of Springfields are among the heaviest that I am aware of. The net result was that the primer was not pierced or cratered (not even a little)., On the other hand, the pocket that it fell out of had been expanded way over size. My point in all of this is that if a primer is pierced or blanked that it may be a good idea to do some investigation to find out why, other than simply assuming that the entire reason was the amount of powder in the case.

If a primer is pierced in some manner, in the area of the firing pin strike, the tip of the firing pin can be cut by the hot gases that escape, and that cut can cause normal pressure loads to have primer failures. Also pieces of blanked primers can end up inside of the bolt, and interfere with ignition.
 
I'm no expert but I play one sometimes. My most accurate TR rifle likes the bullets seated deep past the neck shoulder junction. I tried everything to get it to shoot farther out but it likes what it likes. It is not a slouch for accuracy. This rifle got me second at Texas State RA LR Championship, second at lapua regional and first at the west Texas regional. Its so accurate I don't even have to point the rifle anymore. It knows what to do.
 
In 2009 my wife's rifle took H.G. Overall and almost broke the world record with a 100 all in the 4" patch, and they were seated past the doughnut! Every time I seated a bullet you could feel it bump past the doughnut. And the bullets were over 100 thou. off the lands.

Joe Salt
 
A blanked primer is when you punch a hole in one. Too much headspace can create a blanked primer. So if the donut is causing a shoulder setback when seating it can cause a blanked primer.

A pressure ring is at the back of the bullet, right where it ends or goes into a boat tail . Yes I have as much as .004 on some. It is usually about .002 average on my VLD's. It can be measured with a good micrometer. Matt

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I am still confused about this "blanked" primer thing...if excess headspace causes it and "blanked" means the primer gets perforated{??? hole in it, right???} What punches the hole if it is further away from the bolt and firing pins protrusion????
Also, on this pressure ring thing, are you sure you are meaning to reference this in thousandths and not ten thousandths??? Sure seems like .004" might have a hard time going down the barrel, whereas .0004" {four ten thousandths} a tenth shy of half a thou seems more likely ????? Hard to believe someone has trouble making bullets and missing the size by .004", just saying.
 
A blanked primer looks like a round hole was punched in the primer, as if it had been done with a die and punch. It can happen for a variety of reasons, but if your case does not have excessive "headspace" in its chamber, the firing pin spring is not weak, the tip of the firing pin has a proper shape, and protrusion, the clearance between diameter of the firing pin tip, and the hole in the bold face is not too great, you should not have that problem.

Not all bullets have pressure rings. Many do not. The way that you detect one is to measure the bullet's "shank" so that the micrometer (that reads to .0001") does not contact the heel of the bullet or in the case of a BT the transition point between the shank and the BT. That measurement is compared to one taken over either of those areas being careful not to put too much pressure on the mic. when taking the reading, and a pressure ring will show up as the difference between the two measurements. Because I mostly shot Sierra bullets before I got into custom hand made bullets, such as are used for short range benchrest competition, I did not think that any factory bullets had pressure rings, but later, when I checked a variety of factory BTs I found that some brands did in fact have pressure rings.

As to your AI and doughnuts, when you fire form your cases, some of the neck brass is pulled back into the top of the shoulder, so as long as you are careful about setting your FL die for shoulder bump, and your die does not reduce the diameter of your cases excessively during firing , you are unlikely to ever experience the problem. The other factor is shoulder angle, an area where AIs have an an advantage. When a regular '06 is fired, because of its relatively shallow shoulder angle, the combination of the force of the firing pin strike, and the primer explosion's force against the bottom of the primer pocket, force the case a little way into the chamber, and creating a temporary (if the pressure of the load is not too light) increase in the clearance between the case head and the bolt face. As the pressure from the powder's burning comes into play, the body of the case expands and clings to the chamber wall. With further increase in pressure, the case will stretch just above the solid head, until the head comes into contact with the bolt face. One of the advantages of the sharper shoulder angle of your AI is that it prevents most of this from happening, acting as a more effective stop from the case being forced forward during firing. This also makes the case length more stable, so there is less tendency for shoulder brass to be forced into the base of the neck.

I have a 6mmPPC FL die of a type that is no longer in production. It has inserts in the base that allow excellent control of just how much the base of a fired case is sized. Typically, the way that I set it up,it is less than .001. The die does not change the shoulder diameter of fired brass, it can be set to bump shoulders just like an ordinary FL die, and the necks of the cases are sized by an interchangeable bushing. Because I watch shoulder bump so carefully, and the body of fired cases is reduced so little, case growth is very small. On the other hand, for my factory rifles that I use factory dies for, the amount of case body diameter reduction is generally quite a lot, and even though I do not bump shoulders excessively, cases grow in length at a prodigious rate. The brass that I have to keep trimming off of the end of the necks is there because it is force up the case by the sizing process. If a particular brass manufacturer's brass is thicker at the top of the shoulder than a the base of the neck, eventually that thicker brass will be forced, by repeated sizing, up into the neck.

If a chamber has a relatively close fit between the necks of loaded rounds, and its neck, the formation of a doughnut, in combination with the bullet shank being in that area can create an interference fit with the chamber neck. This will cause an increase in peak pressure because it will take more pressure to move the bullet forward when the rifle is fired, and if the load is already on the warm side, an over pressure situation can occur, which may result in some sort of primer failure. I say may because that will depend on the conditions that I described in my discussion of blanked primers.

Years ago, I made a reloading mistake, and overloaded a .30-06 model 03 Springfield to the point where the primer fell out of the case when the bolt opened. The case was neck sized, so that there was no extra clearance head to shoulder, the firing pin had been replaced with one that was the heaviest available, the firing pin tip shape was perfect, as was its fit in the hole in the bolt face, the edges of the hole in the bolt face were not rounded, and the firing pin assembly of Springfields are among the heaviest that I am aware of. The net result was that the primer was not pierced or cratered (not even a little)., On the other hand, the pocket that it fell out of had been expanded way over size. My point in all of this is that if a primer is pierced or blanked that it may be a good idea to do some investigation to find out why, other than simply assuming that the entire reason was the amount of powder in the case.

If a primer is pierced in some manner, in the area of the firing pin strike, the tip of the firing pin can be cut by the hot gases that escape, and that cut can cause normal pressure loads to have primer failures. Also pieces of blanked primers can end up inside of the bolt, and interfere with ignition.

Okay, I think we are tracking now...you didn't come right out and say measure the pressure thing in ten thousandths, but why else would I need a "good micrometer" that reads in tenths???
Never heard the term "blanked" primer...always just called them perforated, but I guess it has more to do with why as opposed to the mere fact that it has a hole in it. How it got there is always more important...especially if we are talking 60,000 cup plus!!!! Thanks for the post.
 
Here's an example of 14.JPG severely 'cratered' primers plus one blanked in a low pressure load caused by a fat firing pin with over-generous clearance in the bolt-face. These are Remington 7 1/2 BRs in 6.5X47L.

For some reason it affects small primers much worse than large sizes. The rifle was rechambered to 260 Rem and other than some mild cratering with maximum loads now gives no problems.
 
Yes, minimum loads, allow the primer to back out of the case and then the case is slammed back against the bolt face and makes a heavier second impact on the primer as it it pushed back into the case. If it was from high pressure the outside radius would be flattened.
 
Disregard the case on the left. Right case is a blanked primer and the middle case that shows the effect of leaving the small pierced piece in the chamber while fire forming. Always learning.
IMG_0661.JPG
 
Okay, I am on track now...not just a pierced or perforated primer. "Blanked" means it has had the entire center "die punched" out by certain circumstances or events. Interesting, never seen it, never heard the term. And all this time I thought my luck was nothing but all bad. Must be doing something right to have never run up on this one. Will probably completely destroy a rifle this way in the next few days just for saying this. The punched out part will blow clean thru the barrel and bust up the scope too...my luck is normally bad.

Thanks a million fellas for the excellent explanation!!!!!
 
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I am still confused about this "blanked" primer thing...if excess headspace causes it and "blanked" means the primer gets perforated{??? hole in it, right???} What punches the hole if it is further away from the bolt and firing pins protrusion????
Also, on this pressure ring thing, are you sure you are meaning to reference this in thousandths and not ten thousandths??? Sure seems like .004" might have a hard time going down the barrel, whereas .0004" {four ten thousandths} a tenth shy of half a thou seems more likely ????? Hard to believe someone has trouble making bullets and missing the size by .004", just saying.
The pressure ring is usually very narrow. It is sometimes only a few thousandths long. Most bullets run in tenths like you said but I saw one lot at 004. I also had a few lots at close to 002. I really don't like them when they are big. They just don't seem to shoot quite as good.

Most times when you blank a primer it just vents a little out the bolt. Sometimes it will break a Jewel trigger. You usually need to take the bolt apart and clean it out inside and get the little piece of primer out.
Matt
 
The pressure ring is usually very narrow. It is sometimes only a few thousandths long. Most bullets run in tenths like you said but I saw one lot at 004. I also had a few lots at close to 002. I really don't like them when they are big. They just don't seem to shoot quite as good.

Most times when you blank a primer it just vents a little out the bolt. Sometimes it will break a Jewel trigger. You usually need to take the bolt apart and clean it out inside and get the little piece of primer out.
Matt

Matt are you talking the length of the ring or diameter? I never measured the length but never seen one larger than .0005" over the shank size.
 
Matt are you talking the length of the ring or diameter? I never measured the length but never seen one larger than .0005" over the shank size.
I had lots that were a full .002 fatter. The lot I broke the record with was .3075 on the ring and .307 on the shank. I had one lot that shot horrible and the ring was .3092 on the ring and .3082 on the shank. Measured with a Mitutoyo 4 digit friction thimble. It repeats over and over and I checked it on a Guage. The lot I won the heavy aggs. with in 2015 was .3079 on the ring and .3072 on the shank. I had some 6mm that were worse and really fat. A full .002 fatter. I also measured some that seamed they had a taper in them from ring to front of bearing. Almost every fat lot I had whether it was 30 cal or 6mm didn't seem to want to shoot. I also have bushings that I run them through to check diameters to sort them. Matt
 
I have not measured the .30's like you. So I cant comment on them. I was talking 6mm. Those numbers are just not acceptable. That fat is gonna cause serious issues. .002" is enough to cause neck clearance problems even!
 
I dont disagree with you. That is one cause. However a doughnut can form in a case that has not been turned as well. Brass flow. Point I was trying to make is that there is nothing wrong with bullet shank exposed inside the case. Some of the stuff you read would make you think if you seat a bullet past the neck/shoulder junction the rifle wont shoot for beans.

OK. I understand your primary point.
 
@Tim s
Like Alex, feel you partially right. And to add just a little more to Alex's replies, what happens in one cartridge and brand of brass, is not always what happens in others. So many variables, such as shoulder angles, wall thickness, hardness, etc., to say all will react as have your own in your cartridges and brands.
Good discussion....
Donovan

I must be lucky. I have reloaded countless calibers from .14's up to 470 Nitro and with the exception of heavily turned PPC necks never came close to donuts. ( never would expect them in a 470, but you gotta admit, it sounds cool. For you precision guys go with 80 grains of 3031 and a 500gr Woodliegh solid).
 
I would add that although I forgot, Boyd made a good point about shoulder bump and potential for donuts when doing it wrong.
Although principally an issue with benchrest cases, too many guys seem to do it wrong and over bump a case, moving shoulders way too much. While it can be done a couple ways, idealy you want a simple guage to measure a case. A tight chamber does'nt need more than .0001"-.00015" of bump and less is better, you can get along fine with less than a tenth.
 

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