BUBBLE LEVEL

[Barlow]

I used them when competing, but not on hunting rifles. Barlow

 

[Depart123]

This would be an interesting experiment. Put tape on the side of the bubble level that faces you. Film the level from the other side. From various positions, cant the rifle to 45 degrees or so then bring it back to level by sight and feel. When it is level by your judgment, say "level" out loud. Go back and look at the video to see how good or bad you did.

 

[mram10]

I use them on all my hunting rifles. Not much level ground where we hunt. And the first shot has to be perfect up there

 

[mram10]

Mean,
In late October I took a friend out cause his rifle was shooting bad with new ammo. He was all over. I put a little rail level on that I use to mount scopes and he was amazed how much can’t he shot with. His groups were still bad vertically, but the horiz was remedied. This was a level range, flat ground at 400yds. He ordered 2 scope levels since.

 

[Depart123]

Mean,
In late October I took a friend out cause his rifle was shooting bad with new ammo. He was all over. I put a little rail level on that I use to mount scopes and he was amazed how much can’t he shot with. His groups were still bad vertically, but the horiz was remedied. This was a level range, flat ground at 400yds. He ordered 2 scope levels since.

Oh, I know it happens. I've seen it in classes I've been in and with people I've coached. I've also noticed that the vast majority of shooters making the egregious errors are new shooters.

It is a training issue that should be fixed with more practice and brain calibration rather than with one more gadget. Common sense has to ask, "How did targets ever get shot without bubble levels?" They have only been commonly available for a few years now. My peers and I have been hitting targets way out there (1200+ yds) for a very long time without them. They can be handy, especially if you are trying to stack rounds in an x-ring. In a field environment they are just a crutch that can waste time, or worse, lead you astray if they get bumped.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Oh, I know it happens. I've seen it in classes I've been in and with people I've coached. I've also noticed that the vast majority of shooters making the egregious errors are new shooters.

It is a training issue that should be fixed with more practice and brain calibration rather than with one more gadget. Common sense has to ask, "How did targets ever get shot without bubble levels?" They have only been commonly available for a few years now. My peers and I have been hitting targets way out there (1200+ yds) for a very long time without them. They can be handy, especially if you are trying to stack rounds in an x-ring. In a field environment they are just a crutch that can waste time, or worse, lead you astray if they get bumped.

For hitting steel.....no big deal but if competing every bit helps. At 1,000 yards even a few degrees out of level will greatly change the POI. If these were high dollar or cumbersome items then maybe not needed but for a few buck and few ounces I will put them on every rifle I compete with.

 

[CharlieNC]

This would be an interesting experiment. Put tape on the side of the bubble level that faces you. Film the level from the other side. From various positions, cant the rifle to 45 degrees or so then bring it back to level by sight and feel. When it is level by your judgment, say "level" out loud. Go back and look at the video to see how good or bad you did.

Lying prone on grass using a canting bipod, Thomas at thlr YouTube did this with a digital measurement and was within a few tenths of a degree, better than a bubble. I use a bubble for Fclass because there is plenty of time; not so hunting and in tac shoots.

 

[mram10]

Charlie, that is like saying a carpenter built a house without a level and it was almost as good as a level. But it isn’t. It’s either level or it isn’t. Math says any cant degrades accuracy, period.

 

[CharlieNC]

Charlie, that is like saying a carpenter built a house without a level and it was almost as good as a level. But it isn’t. It’s either level or it isn’t. Math says any cant degrades accuracy, period.

Apples vs oranges. Look at the YouTube before you jump to a uninformed conclusion, then critique the findings to have a reasonable discussion. It has nothing to do with the clear impact of cant, but one's vesticular sense vs a crude bubble.

 

[mram10]

Uninformed conclusion? It is simple math. Gravity + cant = horizontal dispersion. I will watch the video.
Watched the video long range 56. He was prone in the same place. Now try that test while in different shooting locations and see how plumb he is. Do what you want, but saying “scope levels don’t work” or saying “you can be as level with or without” are simply false.
As for vestibular senses, talk to any pilot about how they can and do fail you.

 

[Zero333]

2 different levels on one of my scopes.
Up front on the right is a Wheeler that fold in when not in use and out when being used.
At rear of the scope on the left is a Accuracy 1st Level.

Both are good but I like the Wheeler one better because it's easier to see and there is very little advantage in real life having a ceramic ball bearing level like the Accuracy 1st.

 

[Depart123]

Uninformed conclusion? It is simple math. Gravity + cant = horizontal dispersion. I will watch the video.
Watched the video long range 56. He was prone in the same place. Now try that test while in different shooting locations and see how plumb he is. Do what you want, but saying “scope levels don’t work” or saying “you can be as level with or without” are simply false.
As for vestibular senses, talk to any pilot about how they can and do fail you.

Look, it is not a huge deal. If you love them, then you love them. There is no shame in that. Some of us like to maintain proficiency with as few helps as possible. I occasionally take my plain old Ruger 30-06 deer rifle, with the duplex 3-9x leupold on it, out to 600 yds on a 3/4 chest plate, just to remind myself that I can. Hell, I still shoot iron sights sometimes!

But do this, take a large bullseye target and intentionally cant your rifle 2 degrees and see how crooked that looks. If it doesn't look that crooked to you, then you really do need a bubble level.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Look, it is not a huge deal. If you love them, then you love them. There is no shame in that. Some of us like to maintain proficiency with as few helps as possible. I occasionally take my plain old Ruger 30-06 deer rifle, with the duplex 3-9x leupold on it, out to 600 yds on a 3/4 chest plate, just to remind myself that I can. Hell, I still shoot iron sights sometimes!

But do this, take a large bullseye target and intentionally cant your rifle 2 degrees and see how crooked that looks. If it doesn't look that crooked to you, then you really do need a bubble level.

Just so we know what kind of drastic changes we are talking about here, using a 6.5 Creed with a .600 BC bullet @ 2750 fps, a 5 degree cant = an additional .2" of drop and an additional 3.4" of windage at 1000 yards. According to JBMballistics.

In F-Class that would take a dead center "X" shot and make it a 10, you just explained how it does make quite a difference at 1,000 yards. If you want a true test of your skill set why don't you just use open sights or a longbow?

 

[Depart123]

In F-Class that would take a dead center "X" shot and make it a 10, you just explained how it does make quite a difference at 1,000 yards. If you want a true test of your skill set why don't you just use open sights or a longbow?

I've already stated a couple of times that the bubble could easily make the difference between an "X" and a "10". I also stated that I shoot iron sights.

I realize that my opinion involves a broader view of shooting disciplines.... beyond what the OP refers to as "bench target shooting". So sue me.

 

[jr600yd]

Well here's something to comtinplate. As I said if the scope is set up right does it matter if the rifle is canted? The answer is yes and no. I'll explain. Your rifle is zero'd at X range and now you want to shoot a target and the rifle is canted 20 degrees. Where the crosshairs intersect does not change.. Theoretically, you should be able to rotate the scope 360 degrees with no POI change. The degree of cant doesn't matter. ( that's the no answer ). Now the yes answer: However, if your shooting with the same 20 degree cant and make a windage change (or elevation) on the scope your going to get both verticle AND horizontal change. That's the simple answer.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

I've already stated a couple of times that the bubble could easily make the difference between an "X" and a "10". I also stated that it took an absurd 5 degree cant to do that. I also stated that I shoot iron sights.

I realize that my opinion involves a broader view of shooting disciplines.... beyond what the OP refers to as "bench target shooting". So sue me.

you are correct but when you go to the site named "accurate shooter" are you really surprised to get a bunch over analytical comments?

 

[Depart123]

I am not sure about the part about it taking an absurd 5 degree cant to move from an X to a 10. This article http://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/canting-effect-on-point-of-impact/ implies that an 8 degree cant takes you all the way off the paper at 1000 yards.

You are correct, I had to go back and find out what I did wrong in JBM. Originally, I left the zero at 100 yds and looked at the difference in windage at 1000 yds. When I changed the zero to 1000 yds then the error increased to a little over 5" per degree. So I was wrong about the amount of cant needed to be significant.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Well here's something to comtinplate. As I said if the scope is set up right does it matter if the rifle is canted? The answer is yes and no. I'll explain. Your rifle is zero'd at X range and now you want to shoot a target and the rifle is canted 20 degrees. Where the crosshairs intersect does not change.. Theoretically, you should be able to rotate the scope 360 degrees with no POI change. The degree of cant doesn't matter. ( that's the no answer ). Now the yes answer: However, if your shooting with the same 20 degree cant and make a windage change (or elevation) on the scope your going to get both verticle AND horizontal change. That's the simple answer.

Actually that is not true. Most rifles have a 20 MOA in the rail. Then we adjust Elevation for additional distance adjustment. If you rotate a rifle, you are reducing this elevation from the settings. Gravity will still be pulling the bullet in the same direction, but you will have lost the correction.

 

[mram10]

I am writing this in a neutral, scientific tone and no offense is meant
It isn't a matter of liking or not liking, the point is "do they work"? Mathematically they work. They are proven to work. For me, I have tried both ways and seen many people shoot better with them including myself. If I had not experience in this, I would sit back and eat my popcorn.
OP, yes they work and you should try shooting at 600+ with and without one to see if you like it. Buy a $5 Chinese ebay one, a $20 one or a $100 one that does your dishes. Up to you, but you should try one. If you hunt LR, then up in the mountains it is a must in my opinion because trees, brush, etc are not always perfectly plumb.
Type in "scope level shooting" in youtube and watch a few videos also.

 

[Depart123]

Well here's something to comtinplate. As I said if the scope is set up right does it matter if the rifle is canted? The answer is yes and no. I'll explain. Your rifle is zero'd at X range and now you want to shoot a target and the rifle is canted 20 degrees. Where the crosshairs intersect does not change.. Theoretically, you should be able to rotate the scope 360 degrees with no POI change. The degree of cant doesn't matter. ( that's the no answer ). Now the yes answer: However, if your shooting with the same 20 degree cant and make a windage change (or elevation) on the scope your going to get both verticle AND horizontal change. That's the simple answer.

You are only correct to a degree. Yes, a shooter may set up his rifle with a small amount of cant to suit his body position and level the crosshairs and adjust his zero to compensate. However, you are wrong in the assertion that POI would not change.

The error is present because the line of sight and the line of departure (bore line) are no longer in the same plane with respect to the pull of gravity. The more the cant, the greater the error. As the rifle rotates, whatever correction was put on to compensate for the pull of gravity is continually decreased until it becomes 0 at 90 degrees of cant.

At the same time, the windage correction is continually increased as the line of departure and the line of sight move more toward being in the same horzontal plane.