Hi, I was wondering why when I neck size with my redding series A die I actually gain .002-.004 more than I had before I sized? I run them back through my rcbs full length die and loose .002. I took the redding die apart and cleaned, reassembled and no change. All runout measured on rcbs casemaster. Any ideas?
Brass runout
- Thread starter boss
- Start date
I use to use the redding a series, but I have since switched to the bushing dies. With the bushing dies you can allow the bushing to "float" and align itself to the fired brass. I think the type you have you actually have the expander button enter the case, then the case is sized down to a lesser diameter of your expander ball, then the expander ball is pulled up through. This is probably where you get your run out. If you were to use bushing dies you probably would not experience this problem, but for most practical purposes, and I mean hunting, this runout is not a big issue. If you are trying to shoot your best groups then yes, it could be a problem. I am working with a 22 hornet at this time with basically the same dies you have, and I try to seperate my brass so I dont have any with a lot of runout. I have noticed my groups to be very good, then I shoot one shot and I add 25% to my group size I am thinking that this is where my problem lies. Bushing dies are more expensive, but I believe they are well worth it, and I dont have a problem with case runout...
It happens all to often, a reloader purchases a press, die and shell holder , then in one weak someone tells/advises them to purchase a neck sizer die, because???? I can only guess the rational behind the logic is they purchased one and think everyone else should have one also. I have neck sizer dies, that does not mean I use them, I use the full length sizer die, the versatile full length sizer die, I want to get all the use and money worth out of a tool that is possible.
When neck sizing with a full length sizer die I do not make wild guestimates when adjusting the die off the shell holder, I make all adjustments with a feeler gage. Reloaders rely solely on a cases ability to center, when neck sizing, the case does not touch the die before neck sizing and the shell holder allows the case to float, so I have no problem allowing the case to center in the shell holder when neck sizing sizing a case. then there is the part where most believe all the problems are caused by the die, the case centering in the shell holder by floating to find center could covers problems with a few presses. And not all shell holders are equal, that could be covered in advantages/disadvantages.
F. Guffey
When neck sizing with a full length sizer die I do not make wild guestimates when adjusting the die off the shell holder, I make all adjustments with a feeler gage. Reloaders rely solely on a cases ability to center, when neck sizing, the case does not touch the die before neck sizing and the shell holder allows the case to float, so I have no problem allowing the case to center in the shell holder when neck sizing sizing a case. then there is the part where most believe all the problems are caused by the die, the case centering in the shell holder by floating to find center could covers problems with a few presses. And not all shell holders are equal, that could be covered in advantages/disadvantages.
F. Guffey
I use neck sizer dies quite often. The reason being is the less I work the brass the better. Also if you have a custom rifle that has the ability to shoot tight groups, you want to try to eliminate all factors except the human one which you cant. If my cases get a bit tight after numerous firings, I bump the shoulders which in 9 out of 10 cases will take care of the problem. It is not at all because everyone has them...I have yet to see anyone at the supershoot full length sizing his, or her 6PPC brass...For general reloading the cheaper dies whether being RCBS or Redding, or whatever will do very well. Expecially lets say if you have two 30-06 rifles. By full length resizing you insure for the most part that you wont have to keep the brass seperate.If all you have is factory rifles I doubt if runout is a big factor. I dont weigh out each powder charge in my pistols because till I am a good enough shot,(which I am not), there is no reason...
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Boss,
Interesting discussion! I have a little different take on this issue. This past summer, I ran into this same condition while reloading for my newest caliber which is 6.5 X 55. 6.5's are the latest for those who love to shoot for precision and ultimate accuracy. (Guess I need to rethink hanging around with the Benchrest guys or those who crave the five shot one hole syndrom.) So I went out and bought me a new set of Redding and Wilson Dies that I use in all my other rifles. And in ultimate accuracy/precision shooting runouts of brass. most believe the max allowable is .001 - .002. Anything beyond that means you can use it for hunting OR throw the casing in the trash because that variable is beyond acceptible limits for consistent accuracy. So I did my thing in resizing and low and behold my runouts were measuring .001 - .002 with new Lapua Brass and then every once in while the measurement spread was .001 - .004. What the heck is this, I asked myself? SO I tried variouis things with resetting the Redding die and I'd do maybe three casings and again the fourth was out of tolerance. Like someone pointed out earlier. Gotta be the die. SO after doing the batch and coming up with about 7 out of tolerance casings, I sent four of the worst along with the Die back to Redding for their inspection. In the meantime, I called one of my Benchrest buddies, an old timer whose been reloading for 45+ years and he asked me if I'd gotten a Expander Die and Mandrel yet. He also said if you are not using the competition die, loose the expander ball in your Redding Die and use the mandrel die to resize the neck. He also told me that if Redding says all is good with the die, run the casings through the Expander mandrel because more likely than not, those piece of brass themselves have bad necks. He also said, sometimes you can bring them back and sometimes its the round file for sure. Well Redding called me back and confirmed that their die was within their tolerances and should not be creating what I had experiences. So when the brass came back, I tried what my shooting friend recommended by running those casings that were out through the Mandrel Die and checked again for concentricity. I was able to get two back to within the .001 - .002 but the rest just wouldn't do it. So the round file had some new trash.
For some who may not know, a Mandrel Die is designed to allow the mandrel to "float" thereby allowing the entire neck to have a good tight consistent runout. The only problem is that if the neck itself was out of tolerance when the base of the neck was made, in all likelihood, that neck will never be able to straighten out completely because the base is out of wack. Bottom line, if your die is able to straighten out your neck to within acceptible tolerance, go with whatever die makes you happy. But if the die seems to work just fine most of the time, you MIGHT consider you just plainly have a bad piece of brass no matter if it made by Lapua (considered by most to produce the best brass availble) or anybody else. I might note since that incident, I have started incorporated the use of the Mandrel Die for each and every reload I do in .223, 6mmbr, .308 and 6.5. The last test I run on every finish cartridge is for concentricity. I rarely have any one that is out of my acceptible tolerance now and if I do, I use that round for fouling and then toss the casing. Might sound kinda radical to some, but it works for me just fine and my targets seem to agree with the results.
Good luck to all and great discussion and input.
Interesting discussion! I have a little different take on this issue. This past summer, I ran into this same condition while reloading for my newest caliber which is 6.5 X 55. 6.5's are the latest for those who love to shoot for precision and ultimate accuracy. (Guess I need to rethink hanging around with the Benchrest guys or those who crave the five shot one hole syndrom.) So I went out and bought me a new set of Redding and Wilson Dies that I use in all my other rifles. And in ultimate accuracy/precision shooting runouts of brass. most believe the max allowable is .001 - .002. Anything beyond that means you can use it for hunting OR throw the casing in the trash because that variable is beyond acceptible limits for consistent accuracy. So I did my thing in resizing and low and behold my runouts were measuring .001 - .002 with new Lapua Brass and then every once in while the measurement spread was .001 - .004. What the heck is this, I asked myself? SO I tried variouis things with resetting the Redding die and I'd do maybe three casings and again the fourth was out of tolerance. Like someone pointed out earlier. Gotta be the die. SO after doing the batch and coming up with about 7 out of tolerance casings, I sent four of the worst along with the Die back to Redding for their inspection. In the meantime, I called one of my Benchrest buddies, an old timer whose been reloading for 45+ years and he asked me if I'd gotten a Expander Die and Mandrel yet. He also said if you are not using the competition die, loose the expander ball in your Redding Die and use the mandrel die to resize the neck. He also told me that if Redding says all is good with the die, run the casings through the Expander mandrel because more likely than not, those piece of brass themselves have bad necks. He also said, sometimes you can bring them back and sometimes its the round file for sure. Well Redding called me back and confirmed that their die was within their tolerances and should not be creating what I had experiences. So when the brass came back, I tried what my shooting friend recommended by running those casings that were out through the Mandrel Die and checked again for concentricity. I was able to get two back to within the .001 - .002 but the rest just wouldn't do it. So the round file had some new trash.
For some who may not know, a Mandrel Die is designed to allow the mandrel to "float" thereby allowing the entire neck to have a good tight consistent runout. The only problem is that if the neck itself was out of tolerance when the base of the neck was made, in all likelihood, that neck will never be able to straighten out completely because the base is out of wack. Bottom line, if your die is able to straighten out your neck to within acceptible tolerance, go with whatever die makes you happy. But if the die seems to work just fine most of the time, you MIGHT consider you just plainly have a bad piece of brass no matter if it made by Lapua (considered by most to produce the best brass availble) or anybody else. I might note since that incident, I have started incorporated the use of the Mandrel Die for each and every reload I do in .223, 6mmbr, .308 and 6.5. The last test I run on every finish cartridge is for concentricity. I rarely have any one that is out of my acceptible tolerance now and if I do, I use that round for fouling and then toss the casing. Might sound kinda radical to some, but it works for me just fine and my targets seem to agree with the results.
Good luck to all and great discussion and input.
Take your die to the hardware store and walk into the plumbing dept.
Find a small rubber O-ring that fits down the threaded rod of the button stem.
Back home, put the O-ring between the top of the die and the stem lock nut.
Trouble is the threads of the stem itself and the die have a little play, the lock nut can "cant/tilt" the stem itself in the throat when it's tightened, pulling the case neck to one side just a bit.
Adding the O-ring allows the stem to float a bit and center too the case neck as the button is pulled through.
Viola`, an 89 cent fix,
(the O-ring trick is as olde as Granite Dies an Powder made from dirt!)
Another trick is too turn the case 120 degrees and size it again, then turn and size again. I can get cases to .001 runout with 3 strokes of the press. If that doesn't do it then theres something bad with the case.
Find a small rubber O-ring that fits down the threaded rod of the button stem.
Back home, put the O-ring between the top of the die and the stem lock nut.
Trouble is the threads of the stem itself and the die have a little play, the lock nut can "cant/tilt" the stem itself in the throat when it's tightened, pulling the case neck to one side just a bit.
Adding the O-ring allows the stem to float a bit and center too the case neck as the button is pulled through.
Viola`, an 89 cent fix,
(the O-ring trick is as olde as Granite Dies an Powder made from dirt!)
Another trick is too turn the case 120 degrees and size it again, then turn and size again. I can get cases to .001 runout with 3 strokes of the press. If that doesn't do it then theres something bad with the case.
I am playing around with a savage 22 hornet model 40 that I just bought. Now I know that the 22 hornet is not a favorite among many shooters, but I plan on keeping my shots on chucks to less than 150 yards. They are not know for great accuracy either. But I have been getting some decent groups, then i get one that takes a 5 shot group from lets say a half inch group to an inch or so. I just got done checking runout and found that I was getting as much as .007 runout. So I took the above advise and resized the cases 3 times approx. 120* apart and low and behold, my runout went down to a max of .0025. Now I am itchin to get out and see if this was my problem..
see, you can teach an old dog new tricks!!! ;D
see, you can teach an old dog new tricks!!! ;D
necchi said:Take your die to the hardware store and walk into the plumbing dept.
Find a small rubber O-ring that fits down the threaded rod of the button stem.
Back home, put the O-ring between the top of the die and the stem lock nut.
Trouble is the threads of the stem itself and the die have a little play, the lock nut can "cant/tilt" the stem itself in the throat when it's tightened, pulling the case neck to one side just a bit.
Adding the O-ring allows the stem to float a bit and center too the case neck as the button is pulled through.
Viola`, an 89 cent fix,
(the O-ring trick is as olde as Granite Dies an Powder made from dirt!)
Another trick is too turn the case 120 degrees and size it again, then turn and size again. I can get cases to .001 runout with 3 strokes of the press. If that doesn't do it then theres something bad with the case.
The O ring size is #17
After I cleaned the redding A neck die I didn't relube the expander button, maybe getting too much friction? Tried to turn the case and resize but noticed no change. Maybe I should do as mentioned and just use the full length die to neck size since runout was .001-.002 average with this die?
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Traditional one piece neck dies, with expander balls are about the worst dies for making cases crooked, There is nothing in the die to line the case up before the neck is sized, and the neck portion of the die is generally too small in diameter so that the expander has so much "work" to do that the pull on the case exceeds the yield strength of the shoulder, and since the shoulder does not yield evenly, the case neck is cocked relative to the CL of the body. If you compare the runout of loaded ammo, the Lee Collet die does a much better job for factory chambers and unturned necks.
Boyd Allen, you left out the part where the neck gets thicker and thinner when sizing, my necks get longer when sized and shorter when necked up. Then there is that part where my case bodies expand when fired leaving the case body larger in diameter then the die body. And there is the billet in the case head, the shell holder height is .125, depending on the case head thickness it can not be said there is nothing to align the case with the die, as with 30/06 R-P commercial cases, 30/06 R-P case head thickness is .260 on the thousands I have measured as opposed to .200 case head thickness I have measured with military surplus cases like LC, SL, TW, meaning the case head is a billet that protrudes .160 above the shell holder.
It takes a little effort but the effect neck sizing has on the case can be measured before the neck sizer expander/ball is pulled through the neck when the ram is lowered.
Then there is the assumption there is nothing wrong with the press.
‘O’ ring, I center the neck expander stem.
F. Guffey
It takes a little effort but the effect neck sizing has on the case can be measured before the neck sizer expander/ball is pulled through the neck when the ram is lowered.
Then there is the assumption there is nothing wrong with the press.
‘O’ ring, I center the neck expander stem.
F. Guffey
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I was trying to keep m answer as simple as I could, only pointing out details that I thought were needed to make my point, which was, avoid the use of one piece neck sizers that have expander balls, when sizing cases that have unturned necks, if you want to try to produce straight brass.
Boyd, is this series A neck die a piece for average shooting or hunting? Obviously I bought the wrong neck die if I am worried about .002 more runout than my FL size die gives me.Need to stay with a neck die that supports the case as the neck is being sized? Sounds good will look into the bushing dies I guess. My redding comp seating die is awesome but I guess it dont matter if your necks are not true?
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
The results that you get with a Lee Collet die will be noticeably better, and more consistent. I set one up a little differently than the instructions tell you to. You may need to take it apart and do a little detail work, deburring and polishing. Just remember to never work the collet without a case in place.
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