Brass or Nylon brush?

[jefats]

I'm from the old school where you were taught to use a brass brush when cleaning the bore after a range session. Now, it seems the conventional wisdom is leaning more to the nylon brush and that scrubing with a brass brush adds to unnecessary bore wear.

How about it forum members.....is this the new way to do it now?

 

[jonbearman]

This subject gets covered once in awhile and the only real difference I can see is brass brush's are dissolved by some of the bore solvents containing ammonia. It takes a long time to ruin the brush and it also gives you a false positive when you are patching with more solvent looking for trace copper after brushing.The brass leaves trace particles that look blue on your patch indicating you have more copper to remove. I would just keep it in mind while brushing.The nylon works almost as good as brass if you use an aggressive solvent.

 

[357Mag]

Jfats -

Howdy !

Hey.... if your barrel is "up-to-it ", howza bout NO brush ?

My Broughton "5-C" rifled 6mm SS 29" 1-8 has never seen a brush. Don't need one.

And more gratifying still..... my Marlin M-336 XLR .35 Rem SS 24" 1-16 factory barrel cleans-up
w/o my having to use a brush ( even w/ its deep " Ballard-type " rifling ).

With regards,
357Mag

 

[tclaunch]

At the cost of a single nylon brush you can conduct the same test as I did to see where all this gets filed. Clean your barrel vigorously with a nylon brush and repeat till the 4th dry patch comes out clean. Unscrew the nylon and replace it with a phosphor/bronze and reclean the barrel in the same sitting with no shots fired. I learned real quick to remove all nylon brushes from my range box and place them at the reloading bench. There is no better use of a nylon brush than to clean the inside of case necks after annealing. They have no value as a bore cleaner.

 

[SS427]

Read this article from this website and you will see not even the experts can agree on what you should do:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/barrel-cleaning-debate/

I conducted the same test tclaunch suggests and I now only use bronze brushes to clean the bore. I also drag them carefully back through the crown cause life is too short to unscrew it each time, and I'm also too lazy. I have a 6BR with over 1500 rounds, cleaned every 25 rounds, and it still shoots the occassional group in the .1 and most of them in the .2s.

 

[AndyTaber]

I just checked the Krieger web sight. It sez when cleaning to "use a good quality nylon or bronze brush." It says NEVER use a stainless steel brush. I figure after going to a match and putting 50 rounds through it, the bronze brush has to be mild by comparison.

 

[Dave T]

I agree with otter and tclaunch.
You want to get a bore clean you need a good quality bronze bristle brush. I hear the alarms about pulling a brush back across the crown and in the last several years I got away from bronze brushes and went with the trend to nylon brushes but not anymore. All I can say is, from my experience and I shoot a lot, I don't feel I have ever harmed a barrel or crown with a bronze brush. Just go to the Super Shoot and watch those folks scrub those bores with brushes, just sayin'.
Dave T

 

[WyleWD]

I kinda lean towards 357mag's position on this subject of what type of brush to use.

If a rifle barrel cleans up in under say 10 patches total why use a brush and run the chance of a messing up the barrel, crown, or chamber. And all of mine clean up in about 3-5 patches without a brush, so why would I even consider it given that some if not all brushes I've paid any attention to have either stainless or steel wire twisted to hold the bristles in place? Just sayin', if ya don't NEED it don't do it. WD

 

[GSPV]

I've got a question for anyone that thinks that their barrel is clean: Have you verified that it's clean with a bore scope?

I thought I was doing a good job till I bought a bore scope. Sheesh, my cleaning *sucked*.

 

[lpreddick]

borescope absolutely! i always used nylon brushes not wanting my beautiful, shiney, smooth bores to be scratched by those hard, sharp, rigid bronze things. i had a lot of unexplained target experiences. finally had the extra $ and bought a hawkeye. man oh man! i had carbon rings in all my guns! this is the carbon deposit that occurs in the very end of the chamber in front of the neck. a nylon brush doesn't even start to get this stuff out. bronze brush users will get this ring out and think the black stuff on the patch is carbon in the bore. i couldn't figure out why after several clean patches if i pushed a bronze brush thru followed by a wet patch the patches were dirty again! i was told the bronze brush was dirty, but an extremely cleaned one produced the same results. i was chipping away at the ring and didn't realize it. a nylon brush will assist in loosing the bore carbon/powder residue and i don't hesitate to pull it back over the crown gently. buy or find a friend with a scope and you will be amazed.

 

[dreever]

I second the suggestion to clean with a nylon brush till the patches come out spotless. Then make a pass or two with a wet bronze brush and then see what the patches look like. I'm not talking copper I'm talking powder and carbon. The best nylon brushes just don't compare to a bronze brush.
I made the complete circle from bronze/nylon/no brush back to bronze and this is where I'll stay.
Danny

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

I too have used bronze brushes and tried a nylon brush, then went back to the bronze brushes! The nylon just isn't stiff enough, or fine enough, to get at the carbon in the bore! As for the blue traces on a wet patch after using one, that is life and you'll just have to deal with it! I have read that a bronze jag will produce traces of blue on a patch also. If this concerns you? Try a plastic patch jag when running solvent to check for traces of remaining copper! I would love to have a bore scope! Not just to make sure my barrels are clean but, to inspect the throat/leade ares of the chamber for erosion and fire cracking! That expense is just out of the realm of possibilities at this current time.

Mike

 

[Irv Benzion]

All of you are correct!! Bronze brushes are more effective in agitating the solvent thereby oxgenating it making it more effective in removing carbon. One can not scrape either copper or carbon from the barrel. Copper must be dissloved. Carbon must be lifted off the surface by the use of surfacants in the solvent. All of the old petroleum based products do not remove carbon. The advantage of a nylon brush is to apply solvent materials that dissolve copper.

Irv Benzion

 

[WyleWD]

And for those who claim "patch only", you must have extraordinary barrels. Can't help but say: think your missing all the carbon, but hey... it's your own barrel, take care of it how ever you want. But I feel it is poor advise to others.

No extaordinary barrels here....Have a borescope and have the bores double checked by the gunsmith every season and sometimes twice a season. Personally, my experience is that the brushes or the twisted wire makes very tiny gouges in the bore, thus allowing for build up of carbon or copper or both in those minute scratches. If you've never tried the patch only, perhaps you should try it or do more research before you condem it. WD

 

[johnmyers]

And for those who claim "patch only", you must have extraordinary barrels. Can't help but say: think your missing all the carbon, but hey... it's your own barrel, take care of it how ever you want. But I feel it is poor advise to others.

No extaordinary barrels here....Have a borescope and have the bores double checked by the gunsmith every season and sometimes twice a season. Personally, my experience is that the brushes or the twisted wire makes very tiny gouges in the bore, thus allowing for build up of carbon or copper or both in those minute scratches. If you've never tried the patch only, perhaps you should try it or do more research before you condem it. WD

I agree with WD. I don't use brushes either and I get along well with my bbls. I saw a you tube of John Krieger and he did not recommend brushes or letting jag exit bbl or dragging anything back across the crown. He is one of the most respected men in the industry and his method has worked well for me but you should do what you feel confident with. I've seen WD shoot several times and there is nothing wrong with his bbls.
John

 

[Forum Boss]

All depends on the barrel. My best barrel, a PacNor 3-groove, has never seen a brush of any kind, only soaking wet patches and Wipe-Out. I have never had a carbon ring, no stubborn copper fouling. Throat has advanced only .007 in 800 rounds, crown is like new. Velocity is within 8 fps of load when brand new. Accuracy is same as new, if not better.

Regarding pulling a brush off after out-stroke: 1) By "sawing" the brush both directions, you are forcing the bristles to change direction right over the most delicate area of your barrel; 2) You are dragging the same residues back into the bore that you are trying to get rid of; 3) Removing the brush allows you to clean and flush the crap off the brush before you send it back through the barrel breech to muzzle -- this takes only seconds.

I have viewed the crown of barrels that got a lot of 2-way back and forth brushing with a bronze brush. The edge of the crown looked like shark's teeth. Both Tim North (Broughton) and John Krieger (Krieger) advise against dragging a bronze brush back across the crown. Why saw your brush both ways if there is no benefit and potential negatives?

I advise folks to use the least invasive methods to clean bores. Yes some of the short-range benchrest guys often brush "early and often". But they are also prepared to recrown and replace barrels after as little as 600 rounds.

WyleWD wrote: Personally, my experience is that the brushes or the twisted wire makes very tiny gouges in the bore, thus allowing for build up of carbon or copper or both in those minute scratches.

-- I can't confirm this scientifically one way or another, but I think there may be some truth to it. I can only say that with soaking wet patches, and Wipe-out I have zero carbon problem, zero copper fouling problem, and that's confirmed with Borescope. As far as pressure issues, as noted above, my measured velocity has pretty much stayed stable.

Other barrels may require brushing from time to time. But I think many shooters still attack their barrels much too aggressively. And I regularly see shooters bow their rods while cleaning, or fail to use a good cleaning rod guide.

BORESCOPING
This can be an important tool but don't be lured into the obsessive pursuit of a mirror-like internal finishes. Many barrels shoot best slightly fouled. AND, if you scrub your bore with abrasives obsessively just to give it a pleasing appearance for your borescope, you may end up hurting the barrel's accuracy. As they instruct doctors, the first rule of barrel cleaning should be DO NO HARM.

 

[Forum Boss]

Question: how do you do it when you need your barrel cleaned fast? (like during load development for an example)

Boss: That is a good question because different shooting styles (and disciplines) may require different methods. My Pacnor-barrel 6BR will be ready after two fouling shots and holds accuracy for 50+ rounds -- by that I mean the ability to shoot inside 1/3 MOA at 600 yards (with no wind). Consequently, I've never had the need to clean rapidly. After a match the gun gets wet-patched and the bore is filled with Wipe-Out (and plugged at both) ends. 2 hours later I dry-patch and put the gun in the safe.

DMORAN: I should have stated in my post above that I only push a brass brush through, then remove it and repeat. With that said I too will not pull a brush back across the crown and I do not scrub with a brush. One parallel direction only for me, down the barrel.

Boss: I think your method minimizes the potential negatives of bronze brushing. And I would follow your method (always with good bore guide) for a barrel that needs brushing.

Again, each to our own.....Donovan

Boss: That's wise advice. Different barrels/loads dictate different cleaning regimens, always keeping in mind the Caveat that "first... do no harm." If a person has a barrel with a carbon ring that is harming accuracy, I'd rather see that person use a bronze brush sparingly than aggressively short stroke with abrasives. That said, I have seen some barrels that maintain accuracy over a long life, even with regular brushing. Keep in mind that my no-brushing success story is with a three-groove barrel that has shallow, wide lands. I also use a wash bottle to squeeze solvent directly into the bore during wet patching. This introduces much more solvent than wet patches alone. I'm surprised more folks don't do this. With an O-ring rod guide, no solvent gets in the raceways or chamber.

 

[johnmyers]

Donovan
From your pics it looks like you're doing a great job of cleaning. Just shows that there is more than one way of doing things. I do like the Boss said, use a bore guide and pour solvent directly into guide and I am not pressed on cleaning fast in a match.
John

 

[Flouncer]

Douglas and PacNor recommend bronze brush. That is all. That is all they say.

 

[lpreddick]

i have noted that a bronze brush used for awhile will have it's bristles "bent" in a rear facing direction...assuming you remove it after exiting the muzzle. to pull this brush back thru the barrel would be scary. you can tell when your brush is this way by pushing your fingers up one direction and down the other...ouch.