Brass cleaning

[dcali]

If you want to clean the primer pockets, Lemishine will not help you in an US cleaner. This is because Lemishine is citric acid and its function in a SS media cleaner is only to dissolve the copper oxide which is what makes brass not shine. Even in a SS media cleaner, the primer pocket carbon comes off because it is soften by the water and the soften carbon is rub off by the stainless steel pins.

I have a commercial grade US cleaner and I find it pretty useless to clean brass even using the “special” cleaner they sell to use with it. It will shine the brass up but does a poor job on the primer pockets. I now use it only to clean my handguns where it vibrates off the sand and gunk reasonably well.

This is not my experience. I've tested plain water vs plain water and a teaspoon of lemi shine in the Hornady unit. The lemi shine cleans the primer pockets. The plain water does not. In neither case do the cases come out shiny. But the carbon comes of much faster with the lemi shine - both inside the necks and in the primer pocket.

 

[scpaul]

I realize that most any and every process that is going to have certain obstacles that will have to be overcome. The idea that I had about the high speed mtr. being run out of balance; what if there were more than 1 mtr. involved? How about running multiple (2-3-4 whatever # of mtrs. they're cheap) D.C. mtrs. at different voltages with seperate rheostats so as to get differant multiple overlapping patterns of various speed vibrations? Differant amounts of weight that's out of balance running at various speeds? Now I'm just throwing out ideas. For something as simple as cleaning with hydraulics and vibration, there should be a reasonably simple/easy inexpensive way to do it. All of these possibilities and add in Limi-Shine, vinegar, a couple of drops of dish detergent, maybe even laundry detergent or dishwasher detergent, both are very low suds. I just think that I'd rather experiment with a few things before I go spend over $100 for a unit that doesn't even come close to the advertising claims like the "Lock-And-Load" Hornady ultrasonic unit that I bought. I've even run it with a dozen or less cases and still doesen't even come close to claims in their advertisements. Keep the ideas coming, we might come up with something simple, cheap and easy to assemble out of everyday junk. I know that there's people out there that have a better mind for this type of thing. Some of the parts are in other products and can be recycled. I'd thought about the power supply and the magnatron out of a microwave, but got to thinking that someone might get hurt. Talk with Ya'll soon, Paul :

 

[amlevin]

For something as simple as cleaning with hydraulics and vibration, there should be a reasonably simple/easy inexpensive way to do it.

There already is. It's called a "tumbler" filled with water, Dawn, Lemishine, stainless pins, and of course "brass".

By the time one tries to figure out another, "better" way, they'll have far more money in failed experiments and quite possibly something that doesn't even match up to the SS pin cleaning.

How much more simple do you want it. Put everything in the "drum" set the timer, and go do something else for 1-3 hours depending on how foul your brass is.

Just saying.

 

[dcali]

That's a good point. To me the benefit of ultrasound is that you can clean small quantities quickly with a small amount of fairly inexpensive equipment. A $250 Hornady Magnum takes care of 100 cases in 15-30 minutes. Beyond that, and it very quickly gets tough to beat a stainless tumbler.

 

[scpaul]

I agree that there's already several ways to clean brass. But with that mindset we would still be polishing it with steel wool. I enjoy tinkering, isn't that almost a requirement to being a handloader? I'm pretty sure that just because you can make a round that goes BANG that you didn't stop trying to improve it, did you? Have a good one, Paul

 

[amlevin]

That's a good point. To me the benefit of ultrasound is that you can clean small quantities quickly with a small amount of fairly inexpensive equipment. A $250 Hornady Magnum takes care of 100 cases in 15-30 minutes. Beyond that, and it very quickly gets tough to beat a stainless tumbler.

Unfortunately, most US cleaners take more than just a couple of cycles to clean a batch of cases as well as the SS Pins. If you can clean 100 cases in 15-30 minutes to the same degree of clean, you are one of the fortunate ones. My cleaner takes 8-10 cycles to just get necks and primer pockets clean, Insides need to be finished with Q-Tips to get them as clean as the pins.

My US cleaner is now relegated to "buzzing" the carbon off of AR-15 bolts and carriers.

 

[dcali]

That's a good point. To me the benefit of ultrasound is that you can clean small quantities quickly with a small amount of fairly inexpensive equipment. A $250 Hornady Magnum takes care of 100 cases in 15-30 minutes. Beyond that, and it very quickly gets tough to beat a stainless tumbler.

Unfortunately, most US cleaners take more than just a couple of cycles to clean a batch of cases as well as the SS Pins. If you can clean 100 cases in 15-30 minutes to the same degree of clean, you are one of the fortunate ones. My cleaner takes 8-10 cycles to just get necks and primer pockets clean, Insides need to be finished with Q-Tips to get them as clean as the pins.

My US cleaner is now relegated to "buzzing" the carbon off of AR-15 bolts and carriers.

It doesn't get them shiny an bright, but it does get the usefully clean, as in the carbon is almost all gone and the primer pockets are free of buildup. I don't care about aesthetics. I just want clean brass.

I think you have to spend a little on the US cleaner to make it work - I don't have much confidence in the low end units, but I've been more or less satisfied with the Hornady Magnum Ultrasonic. It does a good job - just fill it up with hot water, turn up the heater and set it for 20 minutes or so and the cases come out functionally clean with just a little lemishine. But you're most of the way to a stainless system cost-wise. I just don't like messing with tumblers and never clean more than 100 cases at a time, so US works for me.

 

[amlevin]

I just don't like messing with tumblers and never clean more than 100 cases at a time, so US works for me.

Never understood that statement "messing with tumblers". To me there's no "messing" I put the cases in, add detergent and lemishine, set and forget for how ever long I set the timer.

From there I dump the whole mess into my Rotary Media Separator and separate the cases from solution and pins. Put the cases in a colander and rinse. Pour the pins through an old T-Shirt to separate from the solution.

From there it's about the same for any other "wet case" method.

Again, for me it's no more "messing" than any other part of the hand-loading process but I sure prefer the results. That's just me.

 

[dcali]

It's a lot more than "put the cases in the basket, push button, take the cases out, rinse". No steel pins to spill, no media separators, no opening and closing, no colanders, and it's a lot quicker. The equipment has in totality a footprint of about 6" x 10". It would get really old if I was doing 500 or 1000 at a time, but I don't.

 

[scpaul]

Damoncali, I have to agree with you. If you read the advertisements for the US cleaners they say that : You just add a very minor amount of the/their superduper brass cleaner, turn the US cleaner on and a short time you have brass that's spotless right down to the primer pockets, necks and if you cut a piece of brass open, it's spotless too. I haven't any of them say that you can't do more than a dozen and get them clean. I've done as few as 10, ran the 480 sec. cycle 10 times and still not have anywhere near clean primer pockets. I even have to wash the brass again to get their miricle brass cleaner residue off of the brass. I'm guessing that the Quart of cleaner cost around $25, been a while, can't be sure. Mine is still being advertised as cleaning 200 pieces of .223 brass and 100 pieces of 7.62 or .308, depends on which one you see. By the time I bought the machine, soap and shipping, then travel to the store for Lemi-Shine and vinegar, you are coming close to $200, more if I hadn't caught my cleaner on sale. Limi-Shine or vinegar worked better than their high dollar soap and they are easier to get clean after the US cleaning.
If I'd used that same $200 toward a cheap Harbor Freight tumbler and stainless pins, I'd be better off than I am now. I'm tempted to sell it but, I can't do that to someone else and it is purdy sitting on my load bench. I wonder how it would do on false teeth? I think I'd better shutup. Ya'll have a good one, Paul

 

[Rpbump]

Buy an ultrasonic from Harbor Freight. I can c)ean 100 cases, it has a heater, and cycle times can be set for up to 480 seconds. Cost was less than $100.

Rpbump

 

[scpaul]

No thanks, from now on I'll let others do the testing. I've heard far more people say that the US cleaners weren't what they were supposed to be than people that liked them. I've had mine since they first came out. I don't know if H.F. or many of the others had them, except for specialty users, surgeons, jewlers, watch makers etc. Thinking about it , I don't think we had one, or had ever heard of Harbor Freight back then. Paul

 

[dcali]

Damoncali, I have to agree with you. If you read the advertisements for the US cleaners they say that : You just add a very minor amount of the/their superduper brass cleaner, turn the US cleaner on and a short time you have brass that's spotless right down to the primer pockets, necks and if you cut a piece of brass open, it's spotless too. I haven't any of them say that you can't do more than a dozen and get them clean. I've done as few as 10, ran the 480 sec. cycle 10 times and still not have anywhere near clean primer pockets. I even have to wash the brass again to get their miricle brass cleaner residue off of the brass. I'm guessing that the Quart of cleaner cost around $25, been a while, can't be sure. Mine is still being advertised as cleaning 200 pieces of .223 brass and 100 pieces of 7.62 or .308, depends on which one you see. By the time I bought the machine, soap and shipping, then travel to the store for Lemi-Shine and vinegar, you are coming close to $200, more if I hadn't caught my cleaner on sale. Limi-Shine or vinegar worked better than their high dollar soap and they are easier to get clean after the US cleaning.
If I'd used that same $200 toward a cheap Harbor Freight tumbler and stainless pins, I'd be better off than I am now. I'm tempted to sell it but, I can't do that to someone else and it is purdy sitting on my load bench. I wonder how it would do on false teeth? I think I'd better shutup. Ya'll have a good one, Paul

I've never used one of the cheaper units, but it sounds like they're bordering on false advertising. But even the better ones don't make brass sparkle. It comes out dull, but free of carbon. I just did a batch of about 50 cases yesterday. It took 25 minutes (my unit does not have "cycles" - you just set the timer to what you want) with a little lemishine and a few drops of soap. Some clean up faster than others - I don't know why. It's not perfect, but it doest he job I need it to with the least amount of fuss.

 

[Taildrag15X]

I've been using ultrasonic cleaning for 30 years, all my Prone & service rifle brass, not to be bright and pretty but to be clean, inside and out.....

Shinny brass doesn't get you X's, practice does......

 

[amlevin]

Damoncali, I have to agree with you. If you read the advertisements for the US cleaners they say that : You just add a very minor amount of the/their superduper brass cleaner, turn the US cleaner on and a short time you have brass that's spotless right down to the primer pockets, necks and if you cut a piece of brass open, it's spotless too. I haven't any of them say that you can't do more than a dozen and get them clean. I've done as few as 10, ran the 480 sec. cycle 10 times and still not have anywhere near clean primer pockets. I even have to wash the brass again to get their miricle brass cleaner residue off of the brass. I'm guessing that the Quart of cleaner cost around $25, been a while, can't be sure. Mine is still being advertised as cleaning 200 pieces of .223 brass and 100 pieces of 7.62 or .308, depends on which one you see. By the time I bought the machine, soap and shipping, then travel to the store for Lemi-Shine and vinegar, you are coming close to $200, more if I hadn't caught my cleaner on sale. Limi-Shine or vinegar worked better than their high dollar soap and they are easier to get clean after the US cleaning.
If I'd used that same $200 toward a cheap Harbor Freight tumbler and stainless pins, I'd be better off than I am now. I'm tempted to sell it but, I can't do that to someone else and it is purdy sitting on my load bench. I wonder how it would do on false teeth? I think I'd better shutup. Ya'll have a good one, Paul

Your results are more the norm than what the US cleaner "marketers" claim.

FWIW, If you plan on doing your dentures just make sure to use a different "solution". Maybe Bourbon or Scotch would work 8) 8)

 

[scpaul]

Yes, When I bought it, I thought that for once I was going to be one of the first to have the latest and greatest. It was a let down. Mr. Taildrag, I don't believe that this unit would work for you. I've mentioned cycles, It will do set numbers of seconds. I believe the cycles are 90, 120, 180, 240 and 480 seconds, or something like that. When the timer runs out you have to reset the timer (most cases) and start another cycle. Mr. Taildrag, it takes 10 or more 480 second cycles to clean primer pockets and most times now I'm cleaning a small batchs (12 or less) of brass that I'm using to work up a new load or check an old one on a different weapon. I've never cut one of the cases open because I feel sure what I'd find.
I'm a little bit of a perfectionist (little bit of a white lie) when it comes to the appearance of my reloads. I feel like "if a person doesn't care about the outside, can you be sure that they care about the inside?" I'm not talking about brass that is spotless but it should look like it's been cleaned in the last few firings.
About bourbon or scotch: they're ok, if they don't stain, I don't want to look like I dip and don't clean them. I was thinking about something that sterilizes and is clear so it can't stain, and I ain't talking about vodka. Remember that I'm from the S.E. Thinking about it I might better thin it to make sure it don't melt my Sunday ones. Ya'll have a good one, Paul :

 

[Webster]

RE: Final cleaning with walnut shells in a ultrasonic cleaner.

You have to have a liquid in the ultra sonic cleaner. We ruined a few cleaners at work by not having water between the tub and removable water filled tank. You need the water to absorb the energy or else the transducer severely over heats. I saw a couple of transducers disbond from the tub due to the bonding agent getting fried. I used ultrasonic cleaners at work for many years with cleaning agents. They don't always clean everything you put in them.

I good trick to see if your ultrasonic cleaner is putting good power into the cleaning agent. Take a piece of aluminum kitchen foil an inch or two square and put it in the cleaner for 5-10 minutes. If good ultrasonic power is going into the water the foil will get perforated like Swiss cheese by cavitation damage. My Harbor Freight ultrasonic cleaner damaged the foil as much as a $2000 cleaner at work. The power of the units are rated in size and wattage.

 

[scpaul]

Webster, I'm pretty familiar with U.S. cleaner(s). I say that with some qualificatiom. I haven't been around them for many years. Around 1980-83 the copier to have was a "Savin" or a"Ricoh". They were fluid type machines. If the fluid/toner tank(s) weren't kept clean they would work you to death. When the service dept. finally convinced the powers that be, that a 120vac pump and the dispersant (toner thinner) weren't sufficiant to clean the tanks properly they went overboard (tax write-off?) and got the svc. dept. a "Branson" U.S. cleaner that was about 4" tall and about 6' square. I had to stand on a milk crate to reach inside of the machine. This was prior to all the O-Zone info. came out. The cleaning solution was Freon and it had a condenser coil around the top. I'm guessing that the boil off temp. of the freon was around 110*F because I could put my hand in it and not get burned, just good and warm. Remember that all of this is in the early '80's.
Fast forward to today. I figured that there had been advancements by leaps and bounds. I guess that part of the blame was mine for "assuming" the advancements were real and not researching it to see. I don't know how much good it would have done since the box still makes the same claims, I saw one at Sportsman's 2 weeks ago, identical to mine (packing and all).
I'm very aware that the sump/tank has to have some way to dissapate the heat of the transducer, I've seen/smelled what a BIG one does if it isn't cooled; it stinks or used to.
I didn't know about the aluminum foil test. I will be trying it. Anybody need some very clean aluminum foil, ......Cheap?
I guess that I finally found a place where I could b!?*#, and warn others about this Hornady Lock-n-Load ultrasonic cleaner being so lousy, in my opinion !!!
Webster, if you would, check the specs. on the H.F. unit, especially the transducer(s) powder and if it has a heater, those specs too. Thanks.
I wonder if there's a fluid that has a higher density, non-flamable, odorless, and any other potentially bad/dangerous characteristics. I know that it's thinner but, if alcohol content is lower than 50% and the rest is water, do you think it would work? Alcohol under 50% isn't flamable, is it? Actually it isn't flamable at little higher than 50% concentration, if I remember correctly, but I don't want to take too many chances. If I try it, it will be outside near a hose that's on! ;D : I guess that I've beat this horse enough, if anyone has any suggestions other than make it a planter or "TNT" let me know, Thanks Ya'll, Paul

 

[Webster]

There isn't any solvent that will dissolve carbon. Carbon is a stable molecule. If the solution in the tank gets dark colored it isn't dissolved carbon but fine dislodged carbon particles in suspension. In my experience alcohol is a poor solvent : The ability of a solvent to work is based on a property called polarity. You don't what to play with tanks of flammable solvents at home. Many articles on internet advertise solvents for cleaning carbon off of car engine parts. These chemicals basically dislodge the carbon. It's possible that carbon deposits in cartridge cases could be cleaned better with solvents because the deposits are not pure carbon. The other junk from primers and chemicals put in nitro cellulose are mixed with the carbon deposit. If this other stuff mixed with the carbon can be dissolved the carbon would be easier to remove. All you can do is try different things and see what works. We used to buy a cleaner made for ultra sonic cleaners from VWR. It contained a chemical called an Amine. It didn't clean any better than anything else. I tumble with SS, water, lemon shine and Dawn. It always cleans.

 

[amlevin]

There isn't any solvent that will dissolve carbon. Carbon is a stable molecule. If the solution in the tank gets dark colored it isn't dissolved carbon but fine dislodged carbon particles in suspension. In my experience alcohol is a poor solvent : The ability of a solvent to work is based on a property called polarity. You don't what to play with tanks of flammable solvents at home. Many articles on internet advertise solvents for cleaning carbon off of car engine parts. These chemicals basically dislodge the carbon. It's possible that carbon deposits in cartridge cases could be cleaned better with solvents because the deposits are not pure carbon. The other junk from primers and chemicals put in nitro cellulose are mixed with the carbon deposit. If this other stuff mixed with the carbon can be dissolved the carbon would be easier to remove. All you can do is try different things and see what works. We used to buy a cleaner made for ultra sonic cleaners from VWR. It contained a chemical called an Amine. It didn't clean any better than anything else. I tumble with SS, water, lemon shine and Dawn. It always cleans.

What you are saying here is so true. The Carbon isn't dissolved, solvents merely dissolve what they can that is bonding the carbon to the metal. The rest is up to mechanical action to dislodge it.

So far the most reliable method I've found for cleaning inside, outside, and primer pockets on cases is the SS Pin tumbling method. It also provides the benefit of burnishing the case surface for a more than adequate shine.

I find it interesting that when something that simple exists, that does such a good job, people are still looking for a better method that usually does a less effective job and is far more complicated.