Brass cleaning

[scpaul]

I have one of the early Hornady ultrasonic brass cleaners. It only holds about 2 liters and the max time is about 480 seconds, it hasn't got any heater. I have the proper cleaner (Hornady) and have mixed it at the proper, stronger and weaker concentrations. It doesn't clean very well and leaves the primer pockets almost as dirty as they were before cleaning. After the cleaning (multiple cycles) when I take them out and rinse them (very well) they have a heavy dull film on the brass that I usually clean by putting it in the vibratory cleaner with walnut shell media. Has anyone had this problem? If so what did you do to correct it?
I've been thinking about forgetting the regular cleaner and using Limi-Shine and maybe a couple of drops of Dawn. Has anyone tryed Lemi-Shine in an ultrasonic cleaner? Thanks, Paul

 

[Gillie Dog]

Yep, it will work fine.

I use same ratio of soap and citric acid to water as in stainless steel tumbler.

A small ultrasonic machine will only do small batches of brass well because of lack of transducer power. I do about twenty 270 win cases at a time and they come out clean in the 8 minute cycle. Some times a little more time. Hot water helps also.

I do mine in a 500 ml beaker with soap and citric acid solution in it set in the water bath of hot tap water, my machine has a heater also.

I tried doing 100 cases in the cleaner's basket but the machine is just not power full enough to do it.

For small batches I use ultrasonic but for large batches I go to stainless steel media tumbler. Small batches in ultrasonic in 8 minutes is better than the 30 minutes I tumble in SS media. Also clean up time with ultrasonic is much faster.

It is the particular job/application which dictate best methods.

Good luck

GD

 

[scpaul]

I appreciate the response, I've been looking for a way to use that Hornady ultrasonic cleaner since I bought it. It sure hasn't lived up to the hype, but it was one of the earliest. I've even thought about putting some of the dry moly in it to see if it would get the moly to adhear because of the speed of the vibrations/impacts on the moly/bullet mixture. I really kind of doubt it but other than this kind of thing it just sits there and looks purdy. Thanks again, Paul

 

[dcali]

I have one of the Hornady magnum ultrasonics - 3 liters, stainless construction, heater etc. It works pretty well. You can fill up the basket with about 100 cases - maybe more. I usually just use hot water and a little lemi-shine - a couple teaspoons. I've never tried the official Hornady stuff. That will get the primer pockets clean in about 15 minutes (I usually set the timer for 15, shake things up, and then for another 10-15 if they seem like they need it.

The brass doesn't come out sparkling, but it removes most of the carbon internally and cleans out the primer pockets well. From what I've read, it's a significant step up from the cheaper models. Honestly, I don't know if I would even use a lesser unit. The Magnum is about as low end as I could go without feeling disappointed, and it's not what I'd call throw away cheap.

 

[scpaul]

I don't know if there was a Magnum. When I bought this one I think these small ones listed for $150 or more. I caught this one on sale for about $100 or a little more. It does seem that there might have been a larger one. But buying it was like making a house pmt. I can't be positive, that was a long time ago. Thanks, Paul

 

[dcali]

Maybe not. This is the one I have:

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Magnum-Sonic-Cleaner-110-Volt/

As I said, it's about the minimum that will get the job done.

 

[bsc4444]

I have the Hornady Hot Tub....had same problem. I use equal parts of warm water and white vinegar. Then add Hornady sonic solution...works great.

 

[scpaul]

Thanks, I hadn't thought about vinegar, but it makes sense. I used the Limi-Shine and dish detergent. I had Ajax, no Dawn. I still had to run the 480 second cycle 8-10 times, the primer pockets were ok but not spotless by any means.
I went and looked, the model I've got is Lock-n-Load, 1.2 liter. It says it will handle 200 .223 cases or 100 .308 cases. That's almost false advertising. I looked at the one that you have, it's alot nicer/larger
and alot more powerful.
That one that you mave is over $350 by the time you pay tax/shipping/handling and what ever else they can come up with. In there mine is $136 + everything else. It was more expensive when they first came out I think. Thanks Ya'll, Paul

 

[amlevin]

The small Hornady ultrasonic cleaner is way under powered to clean more than 25-30 cases at a time.

I found that I get pretty clean cases after about 6-8 cycles but I have to wait like the instructions call out an extra 3 minutes after the third cycle. I just set a timer for 12 minutes when I start the third cleaning cycle. It gives me time for the cycle to run (8 minutes) and then a cool off period of 4 minutes. I then go run the unit for two more cycles and then repeat the above.

As for cleaning solution, I no longer use the Hornady or Lyman products. I use the RCBS ultrasonic case cleaning solution. Has a neat self-measuring bottle and the end results are far better than the others.

The problem with dish detergents is that it foams/bubbles and actually cushions the ultrasonic bubbles that do the cleaning. Adding Lemi-Shine merely brightens the brass where the crud has been removed.

If you have lots of time and patience the small Hornady units are OK but for larger batches the SS Pins in a tumbler do a great job in about the same amount of time but with less "babysitting".

 

[dcali]

I disagree on the Lemishine only brightening brass. I tried plain water and it simply wouldn't remove the carbon from the primer pockets after 20-30 minutes. Adding even a little lemishine (which as best I can tell is very close to being just plain old citric acid) made a big difference and actually cleans the brass. I haven't tried soap, but lemshine works pretty well.

 

[scpaul]

Amlevin, you mention a 12 min. cycle. Unless there is an updated version of mine (Lock-And-Load), it doesn't have a cycle over 480 seconds. It was mentioned that dish detergent would actually cushion the ultra-sonic waves. I only use 1 or 2 drops in 1.2 liters, do you think that's enough to be a problem. I guess that I'll try Lemi-shine and white vinegar by themselves and see. Are the transducers something that can be bought at an electronics supply? Would it be possible to upgrade the transducer(s)? Any idea of how many transducer watts per liter? What is the frequency of the transducers on the larger units. Approximately, at what temperature does the unit mantain the water/cleaning solution? If it's reasonable enough money-wise I might try to build a larger one (3-4 ltrs.) myself. I've wondered if a vibration like a vibratory polisher uses would cause the brass to vibrate on itself enough to cause cleaning? Thanks for the input. Any other info like the transducer specs, etc. would greatly be appreciated, Paul

 

[dcali]

You got me thinking and I found this: http://bluewaveinc.com/ultrasonic-cleaning-101/

Learned a few things. Yesterday I tried adding some soap and it didn't really help cleaning, but teh cases dried faster. I figured it was just the weather or something, but according to the above article, it's because the soap lowers the surface tension of the water. With just plain water, it would take a day or two for the primer pockets to fully dry unless I blew them out with compressed air, which is a huge pain. With the soap, it only took a few hours. I'll be adding a little soap along with the lemishine from now on. We'll see if the trend continues.

It also doesn't look like it would be too terribly difficult to make a unit. Might cost a bit to do it right though.

Also this: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-Made-Ultrasonic-Cleaning-Tank/

 

[amlevin]

Amlevin, you mention a 12 min. cycle. Unless there is an updated version of mine (Lock-And-Load), it doesn't have a cycle over 480 seconds.

I set my kitchen timer for the "12 minute cycle". This alerts me that the machine has shut down and has sat for the recommended cook down time before I run it for the next three cycles of 8 minutes each (480 seconds).

As for "cushioning", if your cleaning solution makes bubbles or foam it's also cushioning the ultrasonic "cavitation" bubbles that are doing the cleaning.


When you get into high-end cleaners, especially industrial cleaners, they often have a "de-gassing" cycle that's designed to remove even the air that is dissolved in the fluid.

 

[amlevin]

It also doesn't look like it would be too terribly difficult to make a unit. Might cost a bit to do it right though.

One can make an ultrasonic cleaner but one that will really do the job might be cheaper to just purchase in the end.

All these inexpensive cleaners on the shelves at Midway, Cabela's, etc are merely units originally designed for Dentist's offices and Jewelers. The "Power" runs about 50-60 Watts. The "Real Units" designed for HD cleaning like cartridges, carburetors, etc run closer to a grand in price but they also have 900-1,000 watt "transducers". That's why it takes so many "cycles" with a Hornady, etc but a Sharpertek Carburetor cleaning unit only takes 15-30 minutes to clean a carburetor with baked on grease, varnish, and who knows what else.

 

[scpaul]

Being the recycler (junk collector according to my wife) that I am, I already have several of the pieces that I need. I've got a mechanical timer (o-60 min. and hold) cemented resistors, thermal bi-metalic temp. switchs, stainless kitchen serving containers and other stainless misc. and quite a few other misc. bits and pieces. If I build one, it will hopefully be heavy-duty enough that I will never have to mess with it again. Paul

 

[amlevin]

Being the recycler (junk collector according to my wife) that I am, I already have several of the pieces that I need. I've got a mechanical timer (o-60 min. and hold) cemented resistors, thermal bi-metalic temp. switchs, stainless kitchen serving containers and other stainless misc. and quite a few other misc. bits and pieces. If I build one, it will hopefully be heavy-duty enough that I will never have to mess with it again. Paul

Now all you need is a circuit board that will generate 40,000 hz at 500 or more Watts to feed the transduceer. Oh yeah, you'll need the transducer that will handle the power.

 

[scpaul]

When I was working (Office equip) there were boards in the reproduction equipment that raised the frequency of the power to the neon/florescent lamps so that you wouldn't get horizontal banding. Does anyone have a friend/relitive that's a service tech. I'm sure that they are used in more than office equipment. Anybody got an idea what the specs are on a florescent ballast or a neon sign power supply? The main thing that I see as a problem/danger is the output voltage and amperage.
I've been thinking the other way, using a motor, preferably high speed and attach a weight on it so that it runs out of balance and viberates. I'm thinking that the higher speed the better and using a min. of off balance weight would help keep the mtr. speed. It wouldn't be ultrasonic, but the viberation in the water and the pieces hitting themselves might do the job. It would probably take a while (? hours). The vibratory polishers use a similar principle but use dry solid media instead of liquid with maybe some Limi-Shine or 50% vinegar.

 

[dcali]

You can buy a generator designed for ultrasonics for a couple hundred bucks. You might be able to build a decent unit with one of those but you're still going to be out $3-400. It would be a fun project, and you could certainly build a better one than the harbor freight cheapos, but you're starting to get into real money.

I don't think a motor would work. The whole point of ultrasonics is to create the voids in the water that can collapse, which requires ultrasonic frequencies.

 

[amlevin]

When I was working (Office equip) there were boards in the reproduction equipment that raised the frequency of the power to the neon/florescent lamps so that you wouldn't get horizontal banding. Does anyone have a friend/relitive that's a service tech. I'm sure that they are used in more than office equipment. Anybody got an idea what the specs are on a florescent ballast or a neon sign power supply? The main thing that I see as a problem/danger is the output voltage and amperage.
I've been thinking the other way, using a motor, preferably high speed and attach a weight on it so that it runs out of balance and viberates. I'm thinking that the higher speed the better and using a min. of off balance weight would help keep the mtr. speed. It wouldn't be ultrasonic, but the viberation in the water and the pieces hitting themselves might do the job. It would probably take a while (? hours). The vibratory polishers use a similar principle but use dry solid media instead of liquid with maybe some Limi-Shine or 50% vinegar.

Those fluorescent light "boards" don't raise the frequency high enough. You need frequencies of 20,000 hz to 40,000 hz for an ultrasonic cleaner.

The high frequency fluorescent ballasts have a top frequency of 20,000 hz but their output is high voltage, not a high current more suitable to a transducer.

 

[jlow]

If you want to clean the primer pockets, Lemishine will not help you in an US cleaner. This is because Lemishine is citric acid and its function in a SS media cleaner is only to dissolve the copper oxide which is what makes brass not shine. Even in a SS media cleaner, the primer pocket carbon comes off because it is soften by the water and the soften carbon is rub off by the stainless steel pins.

I have a commercial grade US cleaner and I find it pretty useless to clean brass even using the “special” cleaner they sell to use with it. It will shine the brass up but does a poor job on the primer pockets. I now use it only to clean my handguns where it vibrates off the sand and gunk reasonably well.