Borescopes - Wow!

[BP1]

You are a very smart man,appearence does not last all that long anyway(It is the heart that counts)

Unless it’s cold

 

[savagedasher]

You sell your bore scope, and I'll sell you my old degree wheel. Thats something I will NEVER use again!

Building a speck motor
Has to factory tolerance
Pain in you know where

 

[Papa Charlie]

There is only one reason to own a bore scope in my opinion, that is if you make or chamber your own barrels.
I am sure there are other thoughts on the matter, but this is mine.

 

[msinc]

I may order the Lyman myself, but this thread has caused me to evaluate just what will I see, what will it mean, what will I do with that information, and how will it help me. Barrels can behave very unpredictably and contrary to expectations, so if I see carbon, copper, tooling marks, etc., and it still shoots (some do), now what? Or what if it looks perfect and it shoots like crap? I am struggling to understand how I can intelligently make use of what I see in the borescope in a way that helps accuracy. Maybe accuracy falls off and I see that happens with a certain degree of buildup in the barrel, and the accuracy returns after a cleaning. OK, but I would know that just by cleaning every so many number of rounds w/o a borescope.

I am not qualified to look at a bore and draw conclusions on barrel performance. I can believe what my eyes tell me on a target and how those results coincide with other barrel information, like cleaning regimen, rounds fired, etc. I guess this explains why I have not yet ordered a scope.

Phil

Excellent post with good points and very good questions. For those of you guys that are "sitting on a fence" about a borescope here is a few recent barrel/accuracy issues in some hunting rifles my scope has helped me to solve; Note: all these barrels were high end customs that showed zero flaws out of the box.

1. New 5R cut rifled would put 3 rounds in the same hole after clean and 2 foulers. Then it would open to about 2 1/2 inches in the next 10 rounds and hold that group size. Scope revealed alot of copper at first so I would clean it completely out and try again. It got a little better, but it got down to one land coppering up real bad. I called the maker and he offered to replace it but asked that I do the clean and shoot thing a few more times. I did, it got better {no copper} and everyone is happy.

2. New Button rifled polygonal put first three in the same hole and immediately open to four inches {like very next four shots all over the target}. Bore was completely coppered and shoot and clean did nothing after way too many tries. Maker blamed it on the bullets and it was taken off and replaced.

3. Another new 5R cut from a different maker was doing the same as barrel#1, got it to stop coppering, but it continued to not group. It seemed like it opened up the last time to about 2-2 1/2" and stayed there, but no copper. Ended up being bad bedding. Not every accuracy issue is with the bore. In this case the scope pointed me elsewhere.

4. New Button rifled 4 groove exact same thing as barrels 1 and 3. Kept cleaning and shooting until the one land quit coppering. Most guys might have given up on these three barrels, but I was able to confirm progress and kept going.

5. Used Cut rifled 4 groove that never did copper from new and still didn't, was very accurate for many years and suddenly opened to 2 1/2-3" groups. Bore appeared fine and it was. The trigger got out of adjustment and was readjusted, cut the groups almost in half but still not anywhere near like it was. Again, the bedding was the culprit.

6. New factory rifle shooting 3" groups. Chamber was so crooked to the bore it's a wonder it even chambered. Problem was positively Id'd and the factory was told exactly what to look for. Owner got the rifle back in one week fixed.

7. Button 4 groove almost new. Started out very accurate with zero copper issues. Opened to 1 1/2". Still zero copper and one of the smoothest most consistent finishes I have ever seen. Looked at the throat thinking it might be scorched and saw a ring of carbon. Had a hell of a time getting it out, but wasted no time shooting until it was positively gone. Rifle went back to 1/4" groups.

8. No. 1 contour 6 groove polygonal no copper foul, no carbon. Just didn't want to shoot. Owner wanted to use heavy bullets. It was inspected to find zero issues. No. 1's can be real picky so I tried lighter bullets which it shot very nice and tight. Nothing wrong with this one, owner needs to work up his loads. Then again being so light it may never group with certain bullets, so he knows to shoot lighter ones.

So much for "when it quits shooting replace it" or "let the target tell you when you need a new barrel". You can often do better than that when you have a borescope. Some barrels are just no good and need to go, no argument.
Bores and borescopes are not rocket science. I am sure there are those that would like everyone to believe they are the only ones that can interpret what can be seen, but it doesn't take a genius to see when copper is bad and/or getting better among other things.
I would say most of my barrel problems and borescope use revolve around copper fouling {probably 80%}. Bad chambers or galling from the chambering reamer is next {clicking bolt, hard extract}. It's nice to be able to see what the throat looks like in a potential purchase.
As far as all these flawless barrels that wont shoot for no reason {but they know it's the bore} I am not seeing that. Most all custom barrels are flawless in appearance and when right they shoot at the very least to my expectations {3/4" for a hunting rifle}.
If you are qualified to buy a scope then you are qualified to look at your own bore and make a call...you might not always be spot on at first, neither was I, but hey, you gotta start somewhere. Best of luck.

 

[chop house]

msinc, Excellent post...

 

[msinc]

msinc, Excellent post...

Thank you sir, very kind of you to say so!!

 

[varget204]

If you can afford it ,get one,the lyman's are fairly cheap,I have used one on 4- 204 ruger barrels,1 6.5/284, and a 6mm creedmoor barrel.Before i got 1,i cleaned barrels until patches came out clean, also used copper cleaners like KG-12,Hoppies Elite,Barnes CR-10,had several different times groups opened up.Reason was Carbon/Copper Build Up at back of Throat. It did not show up on patches,was easy to see w/ borescope,If you don't know it's there,it builds up and gets like concrete,At my age I'm Running Out of Elbow Grease.Looking for PROXY,when you practice cleaning my barrels, Just think how Good you'll be on yours.It happens a lot w/thin jacketed higher velocity shells.It's why a lot of barrels won't group,they aren't shot out yet,Just Carbon/Copper Buildup,They are great too if you ever look to buy used barrel,A Shiney Bore w the Naked Eye may look like a Mirror when in Reality,it's a piece of crap

 

[rwk]

Yeh, pick your barrel.

Are u saying like a barrel , when there all used up u get rid of them

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I've been reading (and obsessing) quite a bit about barrel cleaning as of late, and kept running across a consistent theme in several threads; lots of guys (myself included) trying to judge cleaning methods via patch color etc. I'd often see posts from asking "Do you own a borescope", and they absolutely have a point; you're just guessing otherwise.

That said, Amazon delivered a "Gen 2" Lyman Borecam today (~$187 - on sale now), and I'll say the results are quite surprising. Fortunately, my cleaning routines seem to be good (no carbon rings/no copper etc.), but the condition of the barrels....oh my god; it's amazing bullets don't shave 5gr of copper off just going down the tube. I almost wish I didn't get this thing.

I've got ~1,700 rounds down the tube of a .260 Bartlein, and although I was already planning to replace it soon, because it's never shot to the level I think it should; but after seeing the condition of the first 5-6" of rifling, I have literally no confidence in it.

Not much of a point to this post other than to act as a PSA for those without them. They're eye-opening to say the least, and it's amazing the level of detail they provide.

I'll also say the Gen2 screens look way better than the videos I've seen online. Not hawkeye level, but probably 75-80% of the way there. I'd upload photos, but I don't have a laptop that contains a traditional SD card reader.

How the do you know you got a "Gen 2"? I cant figure it out for the life of me. There are NO Lyman borecams that state they are "Gen 2".

 

[MikeMcCasland]

How the do you know you got a "Gen 2"? I cant figure it out for the life of me. There are NO Lyman borecams that state they are "Gen 2".

You can visibly tell a difference from the reviews that are posted online of the earlier revisions. There's also quite a bit listed on other sites about them updating it.

This article references it:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/02/lyman-borecam-video-review-by-ultimatereloader-com/

This is on the box it came in:

 

[Ledd Slinger]

You can visibly tell a difference from the reviews that are posted online of the earlier revisions. There's also quite a bit listed on other sites about them updating it.

This article references it:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/02/lyman-borecam-video-review-by-ultimatereloader-com/

This is on the box it came in:

Perfect. The box for my Lyman Borecam does not have that blue sticker.

 

[varget204]

Are u saying like a barrel , when there all used up u get rid of them

NO ;you show them to people u don't like,have Them look down barrel{ w just eyeball] and you comment,Damn that Barrel looks like almost New,see how Shiney it is.Then u Sell it to Them[at a discount Of course]20 percent off ha ha.Never throw Away used up Barrels,Sell em to the Nits

 

[mike a]

NO ;you show them to people u don't like,have Them look down barrel{ w just eyeball] and you comment,Damn that Barrel looks like almost New,see how Shiney it is.Then u Sell it to Them[at a discount Of course]20 percent off ha ha.Never throw Away used up Barrels,Sell em to the Nits

YES, throw it away it its worn out. I know your kidding about selling. I hope!

 

[snert]

Like many guys, I "evolved" regarding cleaning and experience with barrels. Not being a high income guy I could only compare different guns, not different barrels on one gun for much of my life. Finally I got enough ching to start rebarreling and learned a few things from bore tightness, color on patches, different cleaning products. My guns (that I kept) shot well enough to be interesting and gratifying. Then i bought a low capacity 22 caliber centerfire barrel used for a TC. i tried and tried to get it to shoot "great". It shot "eh" to "awful". Regardless I took it on a PD shoot and did well enough to keep it interesting. Upon return home I bought a borescope. I really wanted to find out if I should keep trying with that particular barrel. when I scrubbed it out good and took a peak I nearly gagged. it had pits throughout, and literally was missing sections of rifling for inches due to corrosion. Upon review I developed a theory. I know it had been used high volume using moly. The previous owner was from a beach area in the south. I suspect it was put away wet so to speak and it simply rotted out. For giggles I compared it to my 1884 Trapdoor. The TD looked so much better. Did the scope help? Yes. I stopped wasting time and money on fireforming and trying to make that barrel shoot. it wasn't bedding, harmonics, cartridge or relaoding issues. That barrel was an abused sewer pipe.

On the other hand i have several guns that shoot very well. Out of curiosity I looked thru them. I saw imperfections that surprised me and remarkably, immediately afterward the guns "shot less well". Mental thing for sure. As a scientific "control" I checked an ancient unknown make chrome moly 220 swift barrel that is on its
's last legs but still shoots 1/4 ich groups when properly "part cleaned". It looks like heck about half way up the bore and throat is defined by area, not measurement. it is still a high confidence groundhog slayer.

Now I use the scope to evaluate major issues when I have a problem. i use it to eliminate candidates for purchase (as I should have that TC barrel) and to inform myself of any changes. I refrain from blaming the barrel right away, becuase I can now get visuals of the inside that I had to guess at before. Panacea? No. Helpful? yep