Borescopes - Wow!

[MikeMcCasland]

I've been reading (and obsessing) quite a bit about barrel cleaning as of late, and kept running across a consistent theme in several threads; lots of guys (myself included) trying to judge cleaning methods via patch color etc. I'd often see posts from asking "Do you own a borescope", and they absolutely have a point; you're just guessing otherwise.

That said, Amazon delivered a "Gen 2" Lyman Borecam today (~$187 - on sale now), and I'll say the results are quite surprising. Fortunately, my cleaning routines seem to be good (no carbon rings/no copper etc.), but the condition of the barrels....oh my god; it's amazing bullets don't shave 5gr of copper off just going down the tube. I almost wish I didn't get this thing.

I've got ~1,700 rounds down the tube of a .260 Bartlein, and although I was already planning to replace it soon, because it's never shot to the level I think it should; but after seeing the condition of the first 5-6" of rifling, I have literally no confidence in it.

Not much of a point to this post other than to act as a PSA for those without them. They're eye-opening to say the least, and it's amazing the level of detail they provide.

I'll also say the Gen2 screens look way better than the videos I've seen online. Not hawkeye level, but probably 75-80% of the way there. I'd upload photos, but I don't have a laptop that contains a traditional SD card reader.

 

[JohnKielly]

Must admit that I have a decent borescope but mostly I judge a barrel by how it looks when you run a patch to the muzzle & back it off a ½". Not saying that's the only place to look, just that borescoping after I use my standard cleaning routine has shown a correlation between the muzzle & the barrel as a whole.

 

[mike a]

The best advice I know to give is to let the target be the judge of the barrel. I've had barrels with a great interior appearence that shot over 1 MOA and other factory rifle barrels that looked horrendous but easily shot sub-MOA.
Barrels are kinda like women, I'd say. You don't want to judge by appearence alone.

Yeh, pick your barrel.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

My opinion is the everyday shooter shouldnt own a borescope. I know ill get flamed but you need to learn to know when to clean a barrel, know how clean it is and what part of its life its in by both. Now that youve seen how rough your barrels are theyll never shoot again and you proved what you already knew- you were cleaning them well. That $180 borescope will cost you a few thousand and about a year getting back to normal. Next time youre cleaning, if you have a good rod and correctly fitting patches feel the difference between a dirty barrel then note the difference after a good brushing on how it feels. Youll be able to feel even a little carbon if youre paying attention (and you have good rods)

 

[MikeMcCasland]

My opinion is the everyday shooter shouldnt own a borescope. I know ill get flamed but you need to learn to know when to clean a barrel, know how clean it is and what part of its life its in by both. Now that youve seen how rough your barrels are theyll never shoot again and you proved what you already knew- you were cleaning them well. That $180 borescope will cost you a few thousand and about a year getting back to normal. Next time youre cleaning, if you have a good rod and correctly fitting patches feel the difference between a dirty barrel then note the difference after a good brushing on how it feels. Youll be able to feel even a little carbon if youre paying attention (and you have good rods)

I could always feel a difference between just running wet patches, and a barrel after I've run a few JB patches with a brush. You still don't have any way to truly 'know' what you're doing.

As far as the barrel I'm replacing, I'm doing it because of the results on the target; the borescope didn't do it any favors though.

 

[muleman69]

The best advice I know to give is to let the target be the judge of the barrel. I've had barrels with a great interior appearence that shot over 1 MOA and other factory rifle barrels that looked horrendous but easily shot sub-MOA.
Barrels are kinda like women, I'd say. You don't want to judge by appearence alone.

You are a very smart man,appearence does not last all that long anyway(It is the heart that counts)

 

[Puzzaz01]

Generally you should be able to make a determination during your barrel break in if that barrel is going to be a hummer or a so so barrel. When I have a hummer of a good barrel I clean it after about 500-800 rounds and that's about when my groups start to open up. Maybe once again a few hundred rounds later, but by that time I've already got a new one threaded up ready to go on. Some of those great shooting barrels look like a thunderstorm is taking place in the throat through a bore scope. My point is that a bore scope is a great tool to sell a barrel and that's about it.
And that's my .02

Darrin

 

[chop house]

My point is that a bore scope is a great tool to sell a barrel

it is also a great tool to use when negotiating to buy a rifle. i never go to a gunshow without one in my bag...

it can put a quick end to the 'never shot much, pristine, well taken care of, not abused, bore is shiny, blah blah' chatter.

BUT, i must say i picked up a 700 knowing it had a terribly pitted bore, just for the action. shot it out of curiosity before tear down and was easily <3/4" so it now gets deer duty on nasty weather days without concern - for it or for the shot.

 

[dolek]

Great tool to own,if you use common sense...some folks have a hard time with the common sense part ...they are the ones telling you the scope will cost you money .

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I use my Hawkeye to check my work and diagnose problems. Other than that it stays out of my barrels. It will get in your head when they start to look nasty. I remember showing up to a local match and one of the guys had a bore scope. He looked in my barrel and said it would never shoot, pull it off. I won that match. I recommend, if you own one, check your new barrels for good machine work. Use it to learn how to clean if you need too, but then keep them out of the barrel. You probably will loose confidence. The other thing is that a lot of people, gunsmiths included, dont realize what they are looking at. You can see something that looks like a trench that you can't measure with a .0001" indicator. The way the throat cuts look tell you the shape of the bore and grooves as well as if your throat is centered in the bore, many do not understand how to tell the difference.

 

[Ggmac]

Any information or knowledge is a good thing . It's how we utilize it that can be problematic .
Use it to diagnose problems , cleaning or flaws and it'll add another tool in your quest to shoot the ultimate group .

 

[Texas10]

I've been reading (and obsessing) quite a bit about barrel cleaning as of late, and kept running across a consistent theme in several threads; lots of guys (myself included) trying to judge cleaning methods via patch color etc. I'd often see posts from asking "Do you own a borescope", and they absolutely have a point; you're just guessing otherwise.

That said, Amazon delivered a "Gen 2" Lyman Borecam today (~$187 - on sale now), and I'll say the results are quite surprising. Fortunately, my cleaning routines seem to be good (no carbon rings/no copper etc.), but the condition of the barrels....oh my god; it's amazing bullets don't shave 5gr of copper off just going down the tube. I almost wish I didn't get this thing.

I've got ~1,700 rounds down the tube of a .260 Bartlein, and although I was already planning to replace it soon, because it's never shot to the level I think it should; but after seeing the condition of the first 5-6" of rifling, I have literally no confidence in it.

Not much of a point to this post other than to act as a PSA for those without them. They're eye-opening to say the least, and it's amazing the level of detail they provide.

I'll also say the Gen2 screens look way better than the videos I've seen online. Not hawkeye level, but probably 75-80% of the way there. I'd upload photos, but I don't have a laptop that contains a traditional SD card reader.

That is why I refuse to own a borescope, it'll never build confidence. An endoscope camera will tell you everything you need to know about your cleaning methods. Using mine, I can look at the lands as they taper at the throat and get a good idea how concentric the chamber was reamed. Carbon, copper and throat wear is all I need to know, the target will tell me the rest.

Other than that, it's a great sales tool for a gunsmith.

 

[msinc]

Reading this thread I have just learned one more reason to buy and maintain a borescope....I personally have never been able to "feel" copper in a bore. I guess if I ever do get good at it then there will be a Hawkeye for sale cheap.....but I wouldn't recommend any of you hold your breath waiting!!
I will say this: if you are the type of person that has a rifle shooting 1/4" groups and stick a borescope down the barrel, see a little flaw, have your "confidence" fall apart to the point it really affects your ability to shoot and sell the gun......then maybe it's high time you take up golf!!!!! Or run for congress as a democrat!!!

 

[JMayo]

I love "ignorance is bliss"
I personally think to know what it looks like in there, up close and personal, is to learn.
I don't clean back to unused condition. I think that's a bit OCD. But I do think keeping the build up in check & finding possible problems early is a good thing.
Therefore, I scope my rifles occasionally.
I also have a Lyman cause I'm cheap !

What's THE UPGRADE on the II ?

 

[savagedasher]

How much time and money would rhis mess had cost without a scope to diagnose the problem?
I'd call this a trench without hesitation. View attachment 1082409

Did it still shoot is the answer

 

[Milo 2.0]

My opinion is the everyday shooter shouldnt own a borescope. I know ill get flamed but you need to learn to know when to clean a barrel, know how clean it is and what part of its life its in by both. Now that youve seen how rough your barrels are theyll never shoot again and you proved what you already knew- you were cleaning them well. That $180 borescope will cost you a few thousand and about a year getting back to normal. Next time youre cleaning, if you have a good rod and correctly fitting patches feel the difference between a dirty barrel then note the difference after a good brushing on how it feels. Youll be able to feel even a little carbon if youre paying attention (and you have good rods)

Not flaming you, but by your first sentence it sounds like a novice shooter can't reason. I'll explain, when I fist got into custom guns, the smith I used had a Hawkeye, and I remember looking through his on different barrels and him pointing out imperfections to me.
So I buy the Hawkeye, thinking anytime I had an issue I could decipher where the issue was, wrong. I knew what I saw, deciphering anything was clearly over my paygrade. Over time it became apparent that my lack of cleaning skills, and sub par load dev was subject more than a tooling mark in a hand lapped barrel. We all learn as we go.
Today I'm way farther from an expert than a novice on one.
The last couple yrs around here the Lyman scope became popular with guys who were as clueless as I was. The poor lighting and terrible resolution of the Lyman has created issues for guys who again have no idea what they are looking for.
I can give examples of follow ups with the Hawkeye that really opened some eyes. Also the problems that arose and the money spent because carbon was not seen in the barrel, for various reasons, not all the scopes fault.
I do agree that feel with a rod is somewhat of an art.

 

[Nature Boy]

I use my lyman to see if I'm keeping the carbon build up under control, especially in the grooves. Whatever throat erosion I observe is ignored. They all erode and I'm noting the distance to the lands anyway with each loading session. Like @Milo 2.0 says above, I'm not qualified to discern anything else I might see.

 

[savagedasher]

I use mine to hold the gun safe down .
I know I can feel when cleaning any problems
And when it stops shooting I replace the barrel

 

[TikkaSporter]

I use mine to inspect and document every new barrel/chamber that I receive. I'll be the first to admit that I really don't know exactly what I'm looking for. Wish there was more for tutorials with pictures, describing what to look for and what is normal. If I see something concerning in a chamber job, which I have several times, pictures are taken and filed. If I later have actual issues, I can pull out the pictures as part of the troubleshooting/documentation process.

I use it to check for carbon rings and to make sure that the throat area is free of carbon before I re-measure length-to-lands when chasing-the-lands.

It has also taught me that I do not need to clean to perfection for good results on-target, and that a clean chamber/throat is much more important than a clean barrel.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

What's THE UPGRADE on the II ?

It just has a higher resolution camera/display. It doesn't look like a 1st generation 1998 color flip phone screen anymore. Think more 2004 1st gen smartphone display.

Still not as good as the images I've seen from Hawkeye's.

I both agree and disagree with some of the comments I've seen in this thread. I will say I find it somewhat amusing that it comes up in every cleaning thread, but then in this thread folks are saying they shouldn't be owned because you can't interpret what you're seeing.

I've also come to the following conclusions in the less than 24hrs I've played with mine:

1.) Rate of fire matters quite a bit as it pertains to throat erosion; to a greater extent than I'd previously thought.
2.) Mild-Abrasive bore cleaners (Iosso/JB) and/or heavy brushing are likely required to meaningfully remove carbon in the throat.
3.) You'll find imperfections in even your good shooting barrels.
4.) It's addicting (at least initially) to see what each "stage" of your cleaning process does.