RL-26 is not great for temp but RL-16 and 23 are really nice. N-570 is more like a blow-torch.
Whoops! Always late.
Borescope Shock
- Thread starter Sparky570
- Start date
Whoops! Always late.
I used Re22 for my 6.5x55 until I began to blow primers on one hot afternoon, I switched to H4831 and never looked back. I believe the 100 series V.V. powders were single based and the 500 series double based. Smokeless powders are all similar, different shapes to burn at different rates, double based are treated to another nitro bath for more energy. Everyone uses Re powders because they give higher velocities, but there is no free lunch, temperature sensitivity is the trade off.
Not all ReLoder powders are temp sensitive. RL-17/22/26 are known to be. RL-16/23 are most definitely not. Just like some Hodgdon are and some aren't. Please refrain from the blanket statements.
Disclaimer- I do not have any interest in Alliant powders...just experience contrary to your post here and in another thread. I don't care for overt misinformation to be spread.
Robin
Thank you for taking the time to look this stuff up!
Upon additional searching and remembering stuff I came up with:
combustion fully nitrated nitrocellulose -- 2C6H7N3O11 + 9/2O2 > 12CO2 + 3N2 + 7H2O
combustion nitroglycerin -- 2C3H5N3O9 > 6CO2 + 3N2 + 5H2O
No elemental carbon ?? Gradual deterioration results in nitrates.
looking at these combustion reactions I think the primary result or product is gaseous - I still don't know where the "carbon" crud causing all this angst comes from
there has to be some chemist guy who could help us out with this!
continuing on:
like I have mentioned previously, for years I have used a combination of Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner and synthetic motor oil. Some of my rifles have had 1000's of rounds fired thru their bores. This PM, in preparation for a rodent shoot involving 800 mile round trip ($130 fuel), $500 motels, $250 meals (gotta eat good for this stuff), $150 ammo (even tiny .20 & .22 bullets & stuff cost $) and $50 incidental (gifts and stuff). All this represents $ - ammo/rifle failure is not an option.
As part of my check list a trip to the range is required. Today was not a good day for firing groups - gusty winds. My usual procedure is to fire 3 rounds @ 200, adjust sights for 300 (max at this range) fire 3 rounds at 300, then fire a 3 shot group at 100. I also did this on May 16. Were my rifle barrels crudded up with whatever and unable to deliver? Was my cleaning regimen adequate? What about other stuff? A 3 shot group at 100 would certainly remove most of the wind aspect. The results were:
The bottom left side bottom target was from a .243 shooting 105 Nosler RDF bullets, we plan to shoot steel out to 1000
The top left side is was from a .22-.250 firing a 75 grain Hornady ELDM bullet (7.7 twist)
The left target is an olde target dating back to 2018 from a 6.5X47 Lapua shooting 120 Amax bullets - fun to shoot steel
This Friday the .20's get a work out.
I plan to continue cleaning rifles using my system. The MSDS info is useful because it ID's hazards & stuff no more than "snake oil". The info in the NIOSH hand book is useful. Apparently, Gunslick has changed their foam recipe from ethanolamine to butyl carbitol - I just bought a small bottle for the trip. The ethanolamine stuff is reactive with copper. My uncle had a PhD in organic chemistry but is dead now and hated guns - no help there!
Since this tread was cooked off with a post on barrel fouling junk I will touch on Re16 - it should be just as temp change resistant as H4350 but contains "decoppering additive", probably some tin compound, that H4350 does not have and contains less nasty stuff than Re22. In addition, when my LGS has it, for about $5 less than H4350, my favorite powder for 68-75 grain .22-250 loads. Might also be useful in 75 grain 6mm AI loads, bang - zip - splat.
An interesting read is the stuff in Wikipedia on ball powder. They get into salvaging tons, of BlC2 that was apparently used in .303 loads for the Brits in WWII. Reading this I keep in mind that to my best knowledge no extruded powders are made for civilian use in the U.S. Ball powder is commonly made from recycled powder or powder that is dated. Apparently ball powder is safer to manufacture and to my best knowledge some of the manufacturing process is done under water. Don't know for a fact but I suspect that OSHA has had something to do with this. My ball powder use now is mostly H414 & H CFE223 "copper fouling erasure". After shooting many rounds in my AR with CFE223 it cleans up well but I don't foam up my AR barrel with its gas port.
An interesting read is the stuff in Wikipedia on ball powder. They get into salvaging tons, of BlC2 that was apparently used in .303 loads for the Brits in WWII. Reading this I keep in mind that to my best knowledge no extruded powders are made for civilian use in the U.S. Ball powder is commonly made from recycled powder or powder that is dated. Apparently ball powder is safer to manufacture and to my best knowledge some of the manufacturing process is done under water. Don't know for a fact but I suspect that OSHA has had something to do with this. My ball powder use now is mostly H414 & H CFE223 "copper fouling erasure". After shooting many rounds in my AR with CFE223 it cleans up well but I don't foam up my AR barrel with its gas port.
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Someoldguy
Just throwing something out here, what are the possibilities for the hard carbon resulting from bore preservatives? IE - not dry patching the barrel before shooting?
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The unfortunate caveats to the reactions you listed are the assumptions that the powders we use contain only 100% pure nitrocellulose and /or nitroglycerin, and that all reactants are present in sufficient quantities and/or the correct molar ratios to ensure complete combustion. They don't, and they aren't.
What we refer to as hard carbon is probably a mixture of incompletely combusted carbon compounds, nitrates/nitrites, and trace metals such as magnesium, calcium, etc. (i.e. "ash"). Note that water is also a product of combustion. It can add to the issue by facilitating the aggregation of the incompletely combusted materials and the subsequent formation of hard carbon deposits inside the barrel.
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Ned & Chris - thanks for the responses - better late than never.
The "hard carbon" I take it is an aggregate of lots of stuff including primer residue, metallic components of the powder and possibly "incompletely combusted carbon compounds"
My post that resulted in these responses alluded to "completely nitrated nitrocellulose" and "no elemental carbon" - by this I meant just C. Incompletely combusted carbon compounds sounds sort of vague. I don't have a clue as to what these "... carbon compounds" might be.
The incompletely combusted carbon compounds might to be an impurities possibly found in pre-ignition (not 100% pure nitrocellulose) powder either in the nitrocellulose or some other powder component. Possibly the carbon compounds were formed upon initial combustion but not entirely burned up like CO. Carbon dioxide evolves form the combustion. Powder commonly contains graphite.
Assuming equal pressures, are some powders "dirtier" than others because of increased amounts of incompletely combusted carbon compounds?
Finally, it appears that bronze brushes and JB work best to remove the black stuff (aggregate). Upon cleaning my rifles lots of black stuff, or the "hard carbon" aggregate is obvious. I have had success in cleaning up my rifle bores with a Gun Slick foam, common synthetic motor oil, and brushing usually with a nylon brush dipped in oil. On occasion I use JB or some mild bore abrasive.
Some talk about bore destruction occurred in this thread. Most of my barrels are about 25% to 50% thru their life span. Usually, but not always, I can get 3 in I hole if I take care in loading ammo, conditions are near perfect, and I pay attention to what I am doing. Shooting bigger diameter bullets makes for getting 3 in 1 hole easier.
The "hard carbon" I take it is an aggregate of lots of stuff including primer residue, metallic components of the powder and possibly "incompletely combusted carbon compounds"
My post that resulted in these responses alluded to "completely nitrated nitrocellulose" and "no elemental carbon" - by this I meant just C. Incompletely combusted carbon compounds sounds sort of vague. I don't have a clue as to what these "... carbon compounds" might be.
The incompletely combusted carbon compounds might to be an impurities possibly found in pre-ignition (not 100% pure nitrocellulose) powder either in the nitrocellulose or some other powder component. Possibly the carbon compounds were formed upon initial combustion but not entirely burned up like CO. Carbon dioxide evolves form the combustion. Powder commonly contains graphite.
Assuming equal pressures, are some powders "dirtier" than others because of increased amounts of incompletely combusted carbon compounds?
Finally, it appears that bronze brushes and JB work best to remove the black stuff (aggregate). Upon cleaning my rifles lots of black stuff, or the "hard carbon" aggregate is obvious. I have had success in cleaning up my rifle bores with a Gun Slick foam, common synthetic motor oil, and brushing usually with a nylon brush dipped in oil. On occasion I use JB or some mild bore abrasive.
Some talk about bore destruction occurred in this thread. Most of my barrels are about 25% to 50% thru their life span. Usually, but not always, I can get 3 in I hole if I take care in loading ammo, conditions are near perfect, and I pay attention to what I am doing. Shooting bigger diameter bullets makes for getting 3 in 1 hole easier.
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