Bolt Action Pistol Build

[Dans40X]

WSnyder-
I'd advise you to read more Federal Printed matter on the subject.
Dusty-
You basically beat me too the punch line.
22DASHER-
1 BATF agents readings/interpretations usually are different from the next agent.
salvagedasher-
Pull your head out-see the light.
Look/click post #15 above
A 700 S/A specialty HANDGUN.
DUH!

TC had their days in court over their Contenders/G2's/Encore's.

Is it legal to push 2 pins on a .223/556 marked/transferred AR-15 lower to swap uppers to a .222,204,300Wisper,300BlackOut,7.62x39,458SC,50BWolf & back again??

 

[savagedasher]

WSnyder-
I'd advise you to read more Federal Printed matter on the subject.
Dusty-
You basically beat me too the punch line.
22DASHER-
1 BATF agents readings/interpretations usually are different from the next agent.
salvagedasher-
Pull your head out-see the light.
Look/click post #15 above
A 700 S/A specialty HANDGUN.
DUH!

TC had their days in court over their Contenders/G2's/Encore's.

Is it legal to push 2 pins on a .223/556 marked/transferred AR-15 lower to swap uppers to a .222,204,300Wisper,300BlackOut,7.62x39,458SC,50BWolf & back again??

Long range hand guns that had write up on here and pictures many were 700 actions but they listed a mimimum barrel leingth. Probably for a reason. You think Larry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Theyre not gonna go track down an ffl transfer document to see how it was labeled. The cub and remington xp and strykers are legal pistols. A remington 700 is a rifle, designed, marketed and sold as such

 

[WSnyder]

I have always tried to do my due diligence in reading, inquiring and attempting to understand the laws pertaining to this. I have letters in my possession from the ATF on this matter but they are a bit dated so I recently inquired again. Below is a response from the ATF answering some of the questions posed in this thread.




Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email, in which you inquired about the following:

1) Whether a Remington Model 700 receiver can legally be configured as a pistol when it is first assembled into a complete firearm.

2) Whether a Remington Model 700 receiver used to make a pistol is illegal unless registered as a short barreled rifle.

3) Whether an unassembled Remington Model 700 receiver may be recorded as a pistol or handgun on ATF Form 4473.

The first thing we need to do is understand the definitions of a handgun, pistol, receiver, rifle and short-barreled rifle. Per 27 CFR § 478.11, definitions of each are as follows:

Handgun: (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol: A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Receiver: That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.

Rifle: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-Barreled Rifle: A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Your questions all center on one particular issue: the manufacture of a pistol using a receiver typically used in the manufacture of a rifle. Based on your scenario, the definitions above and ATF Ruling 2011-4 (attached):

1) You may use a NEW receiver (one that has never previously been configured as a refile) to manufacture a pistol provided the firearm you manufacture meets the definition of a handgun and pistol as defined above. Please understand, a handgun assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle must be registered and is subject to all requirements of the NFA (see attached Ruling 2011-4).

2) See #1 above.

3) No, an unassembled Remington Model 700 receiver may not be recorded as a pistol and/or handgun on ATF Form 4473. As discussed, a receiver alone is not a pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun; it is a receiver. In accordance with the headings and instructions on the ATF Form 4473 pertaining to question 29 (Type), types of firearms include pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms. Therefore, you should record "receiver" as the Type on the ATF Form 4473 and in your A&D records.

Please note, any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms (including assembly) is a firearms manufacturer. The term includes any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis. A manufacturer must obtain a Federal firearms license prior to engaging in the manufacture of firearms. You are encouraged to contact your local ATF office regarding these issues.

In addition, there may be State laws that pertain to this proposed activity. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General (www.naag.org) for information on any such requirements.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-field-divisions.


Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxx | Firearms Enforcement Specialist
U.S. Department of Justice | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
99 New York Avenue NE, Mail Stop 6.N-515
Washington, DC 20226

 

[savagedasher]

I have always tried to do my due diligence in reading, inquiring and attempting to understand the laws pertaining to this. I have letters in my possession from the ATF on this matter but they are a bit dated so I recently inquired again. Below is a response from the ATF answering some of the questions posed in this thread.

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email, in which you inquired about the following:

1) Whether a Remington Model 700 receiver can legally be configured as a pistol when it is first assembled into a complete firearm.

2) Whether a Remington Model 700 receiver used to make a pistol is illegal unless registered as a short barreled rifle.

3) Whether an unassembled Remington Model 700 receiver may be recorded as a pistol or handgun on ATF Form 4473.

The first thing we need to do is understand the definitions of a handgun, pistol, receiver, rifle and short-barreled rifle. Per 27 CFR § 478.11, definitions of each are as follows:

Handgun: (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol: A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Receiver: That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.

Rifle: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-Barreled Rifle: A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Your questions all center on one particular issue: the manufacture of a pistol using a receiver typically used in the manufacture of a rifle. Based on your scenario, the definitions above and ATF Ruling 2011-4 (attached):

1) You may use a NEW receiver (one that has never previously been configured as a refile) to manufacture a pistol provided the firearm you manufacture meets the definition of a handgun and pistol as defined above. Please understand, a handgun assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle must be registered and is subject to all requirements of the NFA (see attached Ruling 2011-4).

2) See #1 above.

3) No, an unassembled Remington Model 700 receiver may not be recorded as a pistol and/or handgun on ATF Form 4473. As discussed, a receiver alone is not a pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun; it is a receiver. In accordance with the headings and instructions on the ATF Form 4473 pertaining to question 29 (Type), types of firearms include pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms. Therefore, you should record "receiver" as the Type on the ATF Form 4473 and in your A&D records.

Please note, any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms (including assembly) is a firearms manufacturer. The term includes any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis. A manufacturer must obtain a Federal firearms license prior to engaging in the manufacture of firearms. You are encouraged to contact your local ATF office regarding these issues.

In addition, there may be State laws that pertain to this proposed activity. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General (www.naag.org) for information on any such requirements.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-field-divisions.


Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxx | Firearms Enforcement Specialist
U.S. Department of Justice | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
99 New York Avenue NE, Mail Stop 6.N-515
Washington, DC 20226

That covers it all. Thanks Larry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Thats why pistol actions always have a different model name. Like i said a model 700 was designed and manufactured to be a rifle. It would say xp 100 on the side if it was to be a legal pistol. Ive been thru this numerous times and the batfe has always been pretty clear on it. Most laws have gray areas but that one is pretty clear

 

[WSnyder]

What is unclear about this statement from the ATF? You seem to say a receiver had to be designated a pistol receiver to be legal but that is not what I interpret from the ATF reply. They clearly address the issue of using a receiver to manufacture a pistol with a receiver typically used to manufacture a rifle. Now a Cub or Xp may make things clearer if questioned but it does not make a 700 pistol illegal if you follow the rules.

Your questions all center on one particular issue: the manufacture of a pistol using a receiver typically used in the manufacture of a rifle. Based on your scenario, the definitions above and ATF Ruling 2011-4 (attached):

1) You may use a NEW receiver (one that has never previously been configured as a refile) to manufacture a pistol provided the firearm you manufacture meets the definition of a handgun and pistol as defined above. Please understand, a handgun assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle must be registered and is subject to all requirements of the NFA (see attached Ruling 2011-4).

I have never been officially told any different nor have I ever been told that it has to be a receiver originally designed as or for a pistol. The key is "one that has never previously been configured as a rifle". I interpret that to mean the first person to assemble said receiver determines it's fate as to what type firearm it becomes for life. Now you can argue that if you make it a pistol you can then make it a rifle but not the other way around. The safe bet would be to leave it in it's original configuration, document it the best you can and never attempt to change it's designation. Since the court cases over the TC's that is the advice given to stay out of trouble. If you make it a rifle leave it a rifle, if you make it a pistol, leave it a pistol.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I was talking about most laws not this one. Its perfectly clear- read their reply to question #3. A ruger charger is another example. Its a 10-22 but labeled as a charger. Like i said theyre not gonna go check a 4473 to see what box was checked. A model 700 in pistol form is not legal no matter what kind of paperwork was done at a gun store. Just like owning an auto sear and an ar15 at the same time is not legal. You can have a truck bed full of auto sears and can buy them with no questions asked. But if you own an ar even without the 3rd hole youre going down. If you own a 9 spring and a 30 carbine you may get out of it but youll be broke. If you get caught with a springfield m14 or an m2 carbine even if not full auto youre going down. They have lists and flowcharts and all you gotta do is have a cop on a mission that may know they never made a 700 pistol, make a call and youre going down. Like i said earlier to each his own

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The answer is in #1 as well altho not as clear. Remington never produced a model 700 pistol. "Originally assembled or produced only as a rifle" is the phrase im talking about

 

[WSnyder]

Reply to #3 addresses a receiver is a receiver and nothing more. You cannot (or not supposed to) designate it any other way on form 4473. It becomes what it becomes only after being assembled into a firearm for the first time. Totally understand if you are not comfortable with it or interpret it different then don't do it.

Remington has sold bare M700 receivers forever. A receiver is a receiver and nothing more, it is not a firearm. They have used M700 receivers to manufacture rifles but not exclusively as we can go back to the sale of a new bare receiver that was never manufactured as a rifle.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id hate to have to prove in court it never had a stock. But hey to each his own. Probably never even get questioned.

 

[savagedasher]

Reply to #3 addresses a receiver is a receiver and nothing more. You cannot (or not supposed to) designate it any other way on form 4473. It becomes what it becomes only after being assembled into a firearm for the first time. Totally understand if you are not comfortable with it or interpret it different then don't do it.

Remington has sold bare M700 receivers forever. A receiver is a receiver and nothing more, it is not a firearm. They have used M700 receivers to manufacture rifles but not exclusively as we can go back to the sale of a new bare receiver that was never manufactured as a rifle.

The part of the gun with serial numbers determine its application . Larry

 

[WSnyder]

I don't know what you're trying to say. Are you saying that a serial number on a receiver makes it a particular type of firearm? I'd disagree, a receiver is a receiver and nothing more until it is first assembled into a firearm. Once assembled as a particular type of firearm the serial number would identify it not as a receiver anymore but as that particular firearm. I'll bet Remington records a M700 bare receiver in their books as to what is on the box "Model 700 Action" and nothing more.

 

[savagedasher]

I don't know what you're trying to say. Are you saying that a serial number on a receiver makes it a particular type of firearm? I'd disagree, a receiver is a receiver and nothing more until it is first assembled into a firearm. Once assembled as a particular type of firearm the serial number would identify it not as a receiver anymore but as that particular firearm. I'll bet Remington records a M700 bare receiver in their books as to what is on the box "Model 700 Action" and nothing more.

Have you ever see a Remington 700 pistol Or a hand gun ? Made by Remington Larry

 

[WSnyder]

I guess you didn't read the ATF response to that specific question.

 

[Dans40X]

I should have italicized the word ACTION in my first post for the reading/comprehension impaired.

Remington sold 700 receivers/actions decades before they were available from Brownells & other vendors.

NFA/Legally compliant pistols have & will be built for years to come(unless Hitlary gets elected)

WSnyder-
as the old saying goes-you can lead a horse to water , but you can't make it drink!

salvagedasher-
do a few more 12oz curls & everything will be fine

 

[NorCalMikie]

What is it about the measurement specs that folks don't understand? According to the BATF, (July 25,2011) if it has a 16"+ barrel and a overall length of 26", it's still a rifle, no matter what it looks like. We call them "long range pistols" but we really know better.

And, I keep a copy of "that" BATF ruling in my shooting bag when I go to the range, just in case any questions ever come up.

 

[shortgrass]

Those new, never assembled Remington receivers come in a real nice box with the factory printed stuff on the end, including the serial number. Cut that end of the box from the rest, and keep it in the safe. Won't take up hardly and room. Would no doubt serve as your bona fides that the receiver was purchased as a receiver and not a rifle that had been dismantled. So would a copy of the 4473 with the sales receipt stapled to it for that matter.

 

[savagedasher]

I guess you didn't read the ATF response to that specific question.

Those new, never assembled Remington receivers come in a real nice box with the factory printed stuff on the end, including the serial number. Cut that end of the box from the rest, and keep it in the safe. Won't take up hardly and room. Would no doubt serve as your bona fides that the receiver was purchased as a receiver and not a rifle that had been dismantled. So would a copy of the 4473 with the sales receipt stapled to it for that matter.[/QUO 4473

With a 4473 you still must have approved by the A TF Larry

 

[Dans40X]

WOW,
No wonder this country has gone to hell in a hand basket!

Federal statute printed in black & white & some still can't read & comprehend.