Body die first?

[mudduck]

Just got a body die to fl size should I use it first before I size neck with my collet or my bushing die or neck size first? Matter?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Just got a body die to fl size should I use it first before I size neck with my collet or my bushing die or neck size first? Matter?

Body size first.

 

[Shynloco]

Just got a body die to fl size should I use it first before I size neck with my collet or my bushing die or neck size first? Matter?

Body size first.

Absolutely!!! Gotta get the body straight first and work your way up the casing. I've long heard people say a Body Die doesn't effect the Neck Sizing. My response to that is BET ME!

Alex

Alex

 

[jim_k]

Alex and Erik - have you done testing on this? I assume you have, but what about the people who only neck size (BR shooters), and in that case, why does it matter. Just curious. I have been doing it the other way around, since I tumble after I body size. My collet/mandrel neck sizer doesn't need lube, so I do that first. However, after the tumbling, I run a dry mandrel down the necks anyway, so you could say I am neck-sizing last.? Does any of that make sense?

 

[CatShooter]

Alex and Erik - have you done testing on this? I assume you have, but what about the people who only neck size (BR shooters), and in that case, why does it matter. Just curious. I have been doing it the other way around, since I tumble after I body size. My collet/mandrel neck sizer doesn't need lube, so I do that first. However, after the tumbling, I run a dry mandrel down the necks anyway, so you could say I am neck-sizing last.? Does any of that make sense?

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, either way.
In a neck die, the body never touches anything, on;y the neck actually touches anything. So nothing about bodysizing would effect neck sizing.

If the shooter only necksizes, then it is moot.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I did testing back when I used to do it in two steps. I found that I my necks were more concentric when I did the body first.

I don't know many BR shooters, but all the ones I know F/L size.

 

[bigedp51]

When full length resized the brass can only move in one direction and that is upward into the neck of the die. Why size the neck first when sizing the body can change the direction the neck is pointed. Any variations in case wall thickness could cause the neck to tilt when sized first.

Three pictures are worth 3000 words.

When you full length resize with a standard die (neck honing optional) the resized case without neck expanding will be at at its straightest and most concentric. So where does the case neck go when sized in a body die unsupported?

Without a good solid foundation your house will never stay level.

And no I'm not carrying a purse (it is a camera bag with two cameras and a laser level) :

I will await the replies from the people who thought you can use a FL .308 die to bump the shoulder of a .243 case.

 

[jim_k]

I did testing back when I used to do it in two steps. I found that I my necks were more concentric when I did the body first.

I don't know many BR shooters, but all the ones I know F/L size.

Thanks.

 

[Richard Jones]

If you have a F/L bushing die, you already have a body die. What am I missing?

 

[mudduck]

No I have a Forster bushing bump die not redding

 

[Marksman63]

When full length resized the brass can only move in one direction and that is upward into the neck of the die. Why size the neck first when sizing the body can change the direction the neck is pointed. Any variations in case wall thickness could cause the neck to tilt when sized first.

Three pictures are worth 3000 words.

When you full length resize with a standard die (neck honing optional) the resized case without neck expanding will be at at its straightest and most concentric. So where does the case neck go when sized in a body die unsupported?

Without a good solid foundation your house will never stay level.

And no I'm not carrying a purse (it is a camera bag with two cameras and a laser level) :

I will await the replies from the people who thought you can use a FL .308 die to bump the shoulder of a .243 case.

That tower looks me familiar! 😀

 

[bigedp51]

No I have a Forster bushing bump die not redding

With my off the shelf factory rifles with a standard SAAMI chamber I get my worst runout when sizing the neck in one step with my Forster bushing bump die. And I get the least runout with standard full length Forster dies with the high mounted expander and spindle assembly.

Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

"Those of us who handload rifle ammunition with accuracy in mind are well aware of the importance of neck to body concentricity in our cartridge case. While there may be some dispute over the degree of importance of obtaining perfect concentricity and its effect on accuracy, we can all agree that a more concentric case is better than a less concentric case. The two principal factors affecting neck to body concentricity are: the quality of the brass itself (i.e. neck thickness variance, case wall thickness variance) and the quality of the reloading dies used. It is mostly the sizing die which affects concentricity, while the seating die can have a small effect (see September 2009 article on that topic). It is ultimately the sizing die that either maximizes concentricity within the limitations presented by brass quality, or fails to do so.

This article's title refers to two-step sizing, a term that may not be familiar to all, so an explanation is in order. When sizing with bushing dies, such as the Redding Competition and Type S dies, it is well known that a neck diameter reduction of more than 0.005" should be accomplished in two steps, with each step sizing the neck down no more than 0.005" and preferably less (see October 2009 article about neck tension). This two-step procedure not only minimizes sizing die induced concentricity deterioration, but it also yields a finished neck diameter equivalent to the bushing's nominal size. It is often found that when using a single bushing to size more than 0.005", the finished neck diameter is smaller than the bushing's nominal size. Those are the basic reasons for two-step sizing."

 

[amamnn]

Just to put things in perspective for folks who have not been through all this before, a not comprehensive comparison of dies, but just what I could come up with at the moment:

1-- Standard FL die sizes neck, shoulder, body, and web/head area. If the expander is left in the die double or even triple neck sizing may occur as the neck passes the expander on the upward travel of the press ram, is squeezed (possibly) down in the neck area of the die and again expanded on the downward travel of the ram.

2- Bushing version of the FL die does all that with the added advantage of choosing how much to squeeze the neck at the top of the ram's travel. A lot of people take the expander out of the die after the initial sizing of new brass or use a separate mandrel to expand the neck when they feel it needs it. Some folks will do this after annealing, for example.

3- Body dies do all the above but do not expand or squeeze the neck at all. The same thing can be accomplished by using a bushing FL (Redding "S")die with the bushing left out.

4-Small base sizing dies do all the above but more so, as regards the shoulder, body and head/web areas.

5-Standard neck dies either collet type like the Lee or bushing type like many others, do not generally use an expander. The Lee has a sort of mandrel against which the collet may or may not squeeze the neck, depending upon how much you have adjusted the collet travel. This is not an exact adjustment in the Lee version; there maybe other more predictable collets in other brands of this type of die. I have not used them and cannot say how well they work if at all. The bushing type will squeeze the neck to a set diameter as indicated on the bushing, more or less exactly depending upon a few factors, the most important of which is the user's experience and patience.

6-Neck/bushing/bodybump dies are made by Forster for sure and possibly some other have licensed the design by now. They will do everything a bushing type neck die will do, but also set back the shoulder of the case if adjusted to do so.

IMHO, anything Mr. Salazar writes, wrote, or will write about the old standard type long cartridges, especially the .30-06, is revealed truth straight from the mount and carved in stone for all us lowly mortals to live by. As concerns the short fats --6ppc 6mmbr and etc--not so much. Still you can't go wrong reducing neck diameter in small increments whether using a bushing on a finished neck or a neck turner on a virgin one.

 

[bigedp51]

There are thousands of people that will read this posting so for the people with standard off the shelf rifles be aware that a bushing dies when only one bushing is used, can increase your neck runout because it has to size the neck more the .005 down in diameter. I was in a AR15 forum and one poster said he would never buy another bushing die again because he did not understand the problem he was having and "WHY" the bushing die was increasing his neck runout.

In simple terms the Forster full length die and using its expander button produces less runout than a bushing die because of the chambers neck diameters in standard SAAMI chambers. Meaning many of the replies you read here are from people with custom chambers with tighter necks. So you must read between the lines of "who" is replying and what type chamber they have and translate this to standard SAAMI chamber dimensions. Meaning does this persons reply apply to you and your off the shelf factory rifles.

Bottom line, I wish the people replying would specify the type of chamber when giving answers and not confuse the issue with us poor folk with big fat factory chambers.

I sold off a large collection of milsurp rifles with iron sights and bought standard factory rifles and added scopes for chronologically gifted eyesight, and it gets confusing by who replies to the postings. Example, I know Erik Cortina full length resizes and uses bushing dies so I assume his rifles have tighter necks than any of my off the shelf factory rifles.

So again it would help everyone reading these postings as to the type chamber you have, your dies and your sizing methods are explained.

And remember, this is AccuraterShooter.com and the "Reloading Forum (All Calibers)" and "ALL" sizing methods are used.

 

[ericbc7]

Body size, then trim, then neck size.
If your case is going to grow it will be due to the body sizing I think. I also do sizing in two steps, although if I neck turned I would do the redding 1 step fl bushing route

 

[Patch700]

With respect to Ed's last reply I would add to it that if anyone can show proof on paper that runout variance when kept to .005" will show result on paper I would like to see it.

With the components , tools and procedures I use I very rarely see much more than .002" runout.... For my own proof I have rounds that had as much as .004" and guess where they landed.. rite where the "More concentric" ones did..

I do not see the big deal with runout within reason particularly when the means of measuring it can be somewhat unreliable at best.

Good luck and don't sweat the little things.

 

[fguffey]

I do not see the big deal with runout within reason particularly when the means of measuring it can be somewhat unreliable at best.

Then there is the sequence of events, step #1, step #2, purchase another die and then go to step #3. then there is the gage that measures, $100.00+, it does not have to be that way except for those that insist.

F. guffey

 

[Shynloco]

I did testing back when I used to do it in two steps. I found that I my necks were more concentric when I did the body first.

Exactly! The other factor is that as Bigedp says, when you work or change the body, the neck size also changes. I've tested that numerous times and especially in my 6.5BR where a sized neck changed by as much as .005 and concentricity (in some casings) improved by as much as .001. I wouldn't say its a hard and fast rule, but is something to look at and measure, even using Lapua brass that has been necked up. Just my observations.

Alex

 

['Freak]

Thinkin’ it’ll depend on whether or not said runout has caused the cartridge to run out of room and so put in a bind inside the chamber at any point up until after the freed projectile has traveled beyond the chamber. Factory SAAMI chambers leave ‘em with a plenty room to wander about, especially in a throat that can have nearly three times greater clearance about the projectile’s OD.

 

[Shynloco]

Thinkin’ it’ll depend on whether or not said runout has caused the cartridge to run out of room and so put in a bind inside the chamber at any point up until after the freed projectile has traveled beyond the chamber. Factory SAAMI chambers leave ‘em with a plenty room to wander about, especially in a throat that can have nearly three times greater clearance about the projectile’s OD.

Add this to your thoughts....not a SAAMI spec chamber, but a custom chamber cut using a PTG Reamer made just prior to the advent of Lapua "No Turn" (Blue Box) Brass, which is .001 thinner than brown box Lapua brass, leaving .001 more space for a casing to "wander about." That's exactly what happened to me when I used a good friend's (brown box) reamer and hence the application of a Body Die that improved concentricity in some casings.

Alex