https://sites.google.com/site/freeballisticcalculator/black-nitride-melonite-and-qpq
i have done 6 barrels now, and a bunch of smaller parts
i have done 6 barrels now, and a bunch of smaller parts
Black nitrade / melonite review of the guns i have had done
- Thread starter Ring31
- Start date
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I will second the quality of MimiTrutec. They are doing barrels with no minimum. Barrels are $60+shipping. Joel Kendrick is their engineer and has probably more firearms experience than any. He is also doing a lot with our military barrels now.
I have been shooting Melonite QPQ for about 8 yrs now.
Butch
I have been shooting Melonite QPQ for about 8 yrs now.
Butch
Heavies said:
yes, i recommend H&M over MMI, H&M will do anything you want... barrels, actions, barreled actions, bolts, AR bolt carriers, gas tubes, gas blocks, pistols....
MMI wont...
H&M does better prep work on your parts
H&M does OEM work for some of the biggest names is guns..
and per my last email with MMI
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I think it is a little subjective as to who does the better job.
Small lots and individual order are processed through Rodney Lanier:
Contact Rodney Lanier information below.
Regards,
Joel Kendrick
Application Engineer
MMI-Turtec, Inc.
cell 704-616-6442
Send to :
MMI-Trutec, Inc.
2609 N. 12th Avenue
Paragould, Ar. 72450
ph 870-236-6920
Attn: Rodney Lanier
Dear Sir,
I am the plant Manager of MMI. Well as Joel has said do not accept individual accounts. However a long time in house employee has assumed this business. He will use our bath with a surcharge. There is not any need in sending these parts to an outside source and then us. You can send them directly to Rodney Lanier rlanier77@hotmail.com. They will come directly to MMI Arkansas facility attention Rodney. His charge is $60 per barrel and $75 for handguns and $55 shot gun barrel. check made out in his name included in the package plus $20 shipping or an ups account #. You can contact him at 870-236-6920
Thanks,
Mike Wooldridge
Plant Manag
MMI-Trutec
Paragould, Arkansas
Small lots and individual order are processed through Rodney Lanier:
Contact Rodney Lanier information below.
Regards,
Joel Kendrick
Application Engineer
MMI-Turtec, Inc.
cell 704-616-6442
Send to :
MMI-Trutec, Inc.
2609 N. 12th Avenue
Paragould, Ar. 72450
ph 870-236-6920
Attn: Rodney Lanier
Dear Sir,
I am the plant Manager of MMI. Well as Joel has said do not accept individual accounts. However a long time in house employee has assumed this business. He will use our bath with a surcharge. There is not any need in sending these parts to an outside source and then us. You can send them directly to Rodney Lanier rlanier77@hotmail.com. They will come directly to MMI Arkansas facility attention Rodney. His charge is $60 per barrel and $75 for handguns and $55 shot gun barrel. check made out in his name included in the package plus $20 shipping or an ups account #. You can contact him at 870-236-6920
Thanks,
Mike Wooldridge
Plant Manag
MMI-Trutec
Paragould, Arkansas
well. like i said in the review... i have had them done by both.. the H&M came out better.
the H&M does better prep work, thats not a opinion... MMI dont have the same equipment
H&M does the OEM for lots of big names in the gun business
H&M has a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers.
the H&M does better prep work, thats not a opinion... MMI dont have the same equipment
H&M does the OEM for lots of big names in the gun business
H&M has a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Ring31,
I did not know that you were a salesperson for them, but now I know.
Butch
I did not know that you were a salesperson for them, but now I know.
Butch
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Don't get your panties in a knot. It appears that it is a link to your website. So our US Military picked the wrong shop?
Butch
Butch
ya, its my website... where else would u post a review?
if you feel like going threw 15 pages of us discussing this long before i sent anything to H&M, feel free
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83495
or 4 pages here
http://forums.wssmzone.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2603
or 7 pages here
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html
and the US Military dont use SBN on any small arms, nor any large ones that i can think of..
if you feel like going threw 15 pages of us discussing this long before i sent anything to H&M, feel free
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83495
or 4 pages here
http://forums.wssmzone.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2603
or 7 pages here
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html
and the US Military dont use SBN on any small arms, nor any large ones that i can think of..
Hey just wondering, do either of these companies offer any kind of guarantee for accuracy?
Say I shoot 30 rounds through my barrel and establish that is is a 1/2 moa shooter, possibly better with more load development. Then I have my barrel nitrided and find out it won't shoot 1 moa no matter how much load development I do. Will they replace the barrel for me?
Say I shoot 30 rounds through my barrel and establish that is is a 1/2 moa shooter, possibly better with more load development. Then I have my barrel nitrided and find out it won't shoot 1 moa no matter how much load development I do. Will they replace the barrel for me?
no idea.... i can say both of my guns shoot as good as they did before i sent them in...
both get no copper fowling after... other reviews from others that have had the work done at many places say the same thing...
if you gun was not new and had fire cracking in the barrel and it is sent in, it "can" make the barrel worse
i did a "test" barrel, a AR/M4 profile, that has over 1k down it to see if it would F it up... i havent had a chance to do the "after" test to find out yet...
i can tell you DONT do a chrome lined barrel... it roached the chrome
this guy had some issues
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=216861&Number=2791209#Post2791209
apache kid
fwiw,
Between 3 Brux barrels for me and 3 for a shooting buddy, two of his and one of mine turned out to be bust for accuracy after we had this done.
I wont' do anymore.
==================
Ring
who did your barrels?
what was the accuracy before and after treatment?
=====================
apache kid
MMI did mine.
both get no copper fowling after... other reviews from others that have had the work done at many places say the same thing...
if you gun was not new and had fire cracking in the barrel and it is sent in, it "can" make the barrel worse
i did a "test" barrel, a AR/M4 profile, that has over 1k down it to see if it would F it up... i havent had a chance to do the "after" test to find out yet...
i can tell you DONT do a chrome lined barrel... it roached the chrome
this guy had some issues
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=216861&Number=2791209#Post2791209
apache kid
fwiw,
Between 3 Brux barrels for me and 3 for a shooting buddy, two of his and one of mine turned out to be bust for accuracy after we had this done.
I wont' do anymore.
==================
Ring
who did your barrels?
what was the accuracy before and after treatment?
=====================
apache kid
MMI did mine.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Ring,
You can do whatever you choose. I sure wouldn't want to change your mind. It does absolutely nothing good or bad for accuracy. I do not recommend it being done on a barrel with over a hundred rounds through it. If it has any firecracking it will stand a good chance of knocking pieces off of the alligator. Won't hurt accuracy, but it will really strip copper. The big advantage is a mucho increase in accurate barrel life.
The email below gives a good idea of the advantages of the treatment.
I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.
As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).
As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.
Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.
Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.
I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.
One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.
I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.
Best of luck!
You can do whatever you choose. I sure wouldn't want to change your mind. It does absolutely nothing good or bad for accuracy. I do not recommend it being done on a barrel with over a hundred rounds through it. If it has any firecracking it will stand a good chance of knocking pieces off of the alligator. Won't hurt accuracy, but it will really strip copper. The big advantage is a mucho increase in accurate barrel life.
The email below gives a good idea of the advantages of the treatment.
I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.
As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).
As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.
Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.
Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.
I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.
One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.
I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.
Best of luck!
im confused?... what you posted is pretty well covered in my review... i never said MMI sucks, in fact H&M says that they do the same process as MMI, after all, they built MMI.. all i said is they do better prep work "MMI does not have ultrasonic dip tanks" to pre-clean or to later remove the excess salts, and the finished product looks better.
all you need to do is look at the high res pics of the guns i had done at MMI and H&M and you can see that
Joel does not do the SBN for MMI, r. lanier is the guy doing it as a "sub-contractor" for MMI using MMI's plant , so MMI can be relived of direct involvement in case of a issue.
they have said this is a few emails to a few people on the forums i posted.
bolt barrels are shilen match SS, both were bead blasted 1st
this was MMI, zoom in on the lower tip of the barrel
this was H&M
all you need to do is look at the high res pics of the guns i had done at MMI and H&M and you can see that
Joel does not do the SBN for MMI, r. lanier is the guy doing it as a "sub-contractor" for MMI using MMI's plant , so MMI can be relived of direct involvement in case of a issue.
they have said this is a few emails to a few people on the forums i posted.
bolt barrels are shilen match SS, both were bead blasted 1st
this was MMI, zoom in on the lower tip of the barrel
this was H&M
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