bigedp51's thread on how to measure case volume

[ar10ar15man]

please use this thread to discuss the various ways to measure case volume...
( so that the reference thread on actual case volume can be left in context...)

 

[ar10ar15man]

Because ar10ar15man can't change the laws of physics.

The cartridge case is the rubber inner tube inside your tire, and you do not not get a meaningful pressure reading on your tire until the inner tube is confined within the volume of the tire.

If you can comprehend this then you just might be able to understand WHY you are to use a fired case to check case volume. If you still don't get or understand it then pretend a fired case has been "INFLATED" like the inner tube and is representative of the internal volume of the chamber/tire.

From Quickload

"Besides the standard entered information the actual internal volume or cartridge case capacity of the used cases is an important parameter for QuickLOAD to obtain usable predictions. The internal case volume has to be established by weighing empty once fired cartridge cases from a production lot and filling the cases with fresh or distilled water (H2O) up to the point of overflowing and weighing the water filled cases."


Let me repeat this one more time..........................

Even Quickload tells you to use a fired case and fill it with water.

And ar10ar15man tells you it doesn't matter and to use a resized case with reduced internal capacity.

I'll say it again, ar10ar15man you could fly a hot air balloon "WITHOUT" a gas bottle and burner.

Stupid is as stupid does.................or for the rest of you please don't do as stupid does.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.



Now what were you saying ar10ar15man before you stuck your foot in your mouth.
(you should remember, "YOU" were the one who said I should learn how to use Quickload)



Sorry, I'm normally not as rude and obnoxious as ar10ar15man, but it was time for some of his own medicine. (crow served cold)« Last Edit: Today at 12:49 PM by bigedp51 »

 

[CatShooter]

Because ar10ar15man can't change the laws of physics.

The cartridge case is the rubber inner tube inside your tire, and you do not not get a meaningful pressure reading on your tire until the inner tube is confined within the volume of the tire.

If you can comprehend this then you just might be able to understand WHY you are to use a fired case to check case volume. If you still don't get or understand it then pretend a fired case has been "INFLATED" like the inner tube and is representative of the internal volume of the chamber/tire.

Gee...

This seems to be a 180° change in what you believe (IF you actually believe anything)... and said earlier today.

Did you read a book or something??

 

[bigedp51]

And the really funny part is someone else started this thread for me and I didn't even ask for it.

Now guess what the creator of Quickload has to say on the subject and its right from the horses mouth.



Mr. Moderator you can delete this entire thread, it was posted under false pretense without my permission.

 

[ar10ar15man]

on the subject of quicload, bigedp51 has chosen to be selective in his publishing on case volumn.
please note that at the begining of the 5.56 thread, i clearly said to you your own case volumn data for your loads.
do you know what quickloads author used for case volume numbers in his software ??

fired case found on shooting ranges........no idea what the chamber was like, no idea of the load, or the prior sizing.....


so while i like quicload as a tool i am smart enough to adjust the tool for my use with my brass in my guns.....

 

[ar10ar15man]

bugedp51 has made to poor references to what is going on when firing a gun, one was steam in a team pipe and one was air in a inner tube inside a tire. neither of these are close to reality. neither compressed air nor steam act anywhere near what gunpowder does when ignited in a cartridge case in a rifle chamber. i would guess me big ed lacks any reasonable engineering background. other statements by him tend to support this. his initial comments on quicload support his lack of understanding of how to use it as a tool.

when a cartridge case is exposed to the ignition of a full load of appropriate gun powder in a rifle chamber the brass alloy under goes both plastic and elastic deformation. elastic is what allows us to easily extract the case... it "springs back" a bit from it maximium plastic deformation. plastic deformation is the resizing of from its initial loaded size to a size close to that of the chamber. anyone who believes the energy necessary to produce the plastic deformation of a 5.56 nato case in a military 5.56 chamber is "insignifficant" in the overall picture of firing a round in a chamber and trying to estimate/predict the results before hands is being foolish.

 

[bigedp51]

Dear ar10ar15man

1. I used simple terms like boiler room, steam pipes and inner tubes so you would understand it.

2. I asked in a Quickload posting "What I'm I doing wrong or not entering or missing?" because Quickload pressures were so far off. One of your answers ar10ar15man was "I should learn how to use it".

3. You didn't even read the instructions for Quickload and measuring case volume so its very doubtful you even have Quickload.

please use this thread to discuss the various ways to measure case volume...
( so that the reference thread on actual case volume can be left in context...)

YOU are telling everyone to use a full length resized case to get case capacity, and Quickload tells you to use a fired case

 

[STS]

Golly CatShooter, I can remember when you and I were the abrasive, obnoxious ones. Seems we've got a pissing contest going on here and only one combatant. My how things have changed. We could do parallax over again?

Dave, Ole Cat Shooter is an abrasive a$$ over on Predator Masters as well. I could do without him and his type on this site, and any other site for that matter. Cat, take your garbage someplace else.

 

[CatShooter]

Dave, Ole CatShooter is an abrasive a$$ over on Predator Masters as well. I could do without him and his type on this site, and any other site for that matter. Cat, take your garbage someplace else.

Gee... life is really the pits when people don't do what you want them to - Huh???


Meow

 

[STS]

It's not about doing what someone else wants you to do or not do. It's about knowing what's the right or wrong thing to do. You have failed to see the difference. Try being civil to other people for a while and see if your life isn't better for it.

 

[bozo699]

It's not about doing what someone else wants you to do or not do. It's about knowing what's the right or wrong thing to do. You have failed to see the difference. Try being civil to other people for a while and see if your life isn't better for it.

 

[CatShooter]

It's not about doing what someone else wants you to do or not do. It's about knowing what's the right or wrong thing to do. You have failed to see the difference. Try being civil to other people for a while and see if your life isn't better for it.

I am quite civil.... it is you that started this petty garbage.

 

[mac86951]

Golly CatShooter, I can remember when you and I were the abrasive, obnoxious ones. Seems we've got a pissing contest going on here and only one combatant. My how things have changed. We could do parallax over again?

Parallax, and COW fire-forming please. While we're at it why not toss in the need for a bore-guide, and seating off the lands vs. jamming.

-Mac

 

[bozo699]

I got a really dumb idea?.........how about we quit being 4th graders and talk precision gun talk?...I like that idea better then bashing on each other, forum boss will shut it down anyway if you all don't quit it! I myself haven't read the thread case volume but I would kind of like to know how others reach a consistent way of doing it, some use water and others ball powder, how do you determine when the case is full and not under or over, cause if I am real careful I can over fill on with water and really easy to under fill, so experts how is it done?
Wayne.

 

[bigedp51]

Ladies and Germs

Please, I was going to say "All Quiet on the Western Front" but new fighting has broken out "again".

Please remain calm and remember if you hit a forum member over the head with a shovel you will leave an impression on his mind.

So again just remain calm, take a deep breath then start using the keyboard in a sane and rational manor. :

 

[CatShooter]

I got a really dumb idea?.........how about we quit being 4th graders and talk precision gun talk?...I like that idea better then bashing on each other, forum boss will shut it down anyway if you all don't quit it!
Wayne.

I have a better idea - why not stop throwing insults out, and gasoline on the fire, and just ask a civil question, and maybe you will get a civil answer? Duh??

I myself haven't read the thread case volume but I would kind of like to know how others reach a consistent way of doing it, some use water and others ball powder, how do you determine when the case is full and not under or over, cause if I am real careful I can over fill on with water and really easy to under fill, so experts how is it done?
Wayne.

Why do you want case volume, and at what stage do you want it.

If you want the volume of the case itself, just weigh it, in grams, divide that number by 8.43, and that will give you the volume of the case body itself, in cc's.

If you want the internal case volume, at what stage do you want it - as new (why?), as fired and FL sized (why), or fired and neck sized several time (makes most sense).

If you fill it to the mouth with water, is that where you seat the bullet... sitting on top of the case?

If you want to compare cases for uniform volume, then just weigh the cases, cuz the weight will mean that they all have the same amount of metal stuff in them, and as long as the extractor grooves are reasonably uniform, the case will take up the same space in the chamber when fired, no matter what size the chamber is.

If you want the volume of the case to insert into a ballistic program, then take a case that has been fired several times and necksized only. After it's last firing, weigh the case, and weigh a bullet... write it down. Then put a tiny dent in the case mouth that will hold a bullet in place - now fill it with water, and push a bullet in to the neck so it has the same OAL as a loaded round. Wipe off the excess water, and weigh it. Subtract the weight of the case and bullet alone.

That will give you the best "water volume" you can get for the case in "your rifle".

See.. 4 year olds can play nice

An apology owed but not expected.

 

[CatShooter]

There is only one reason I care about case volume and that's to use as input to QuickLoad. If you use the programs default you'll probably be disappointed when your measured velocity is way off from the QuickLoad prediction. Spend some quality time with a few fired, unsized brass, some water and a good scale and the predictions get a lot closer to the observed results.

There are some who sort cases by volume. I believe it falls in the same category as picking fly s#!t out of pepper but that's just me.

David...

You're just being abrasive and obnoxious!!



Meow

 

[bigedp51]

Just for all your information, the person who started this thread is missing in action and the Forum Boss sent me a PM to play nice.

The Forum Boss is over worked and a little frustrated due to the lack of volunteer moderators for these forums and said he didn't have time to babysit members.

What we need is a well balanced person to volunteer to be a moderator (hint hint)

I thought about volunteering, but I know none of you want a person who graduated from the Attila the Hun School of Deplomancy looking over your shoulder. (and I also like cats)

 

[CatShooter]

(and I also like cats)

So do I... I have two, and my son and I donate bags of food to a homeless cat shelter. It's a long (and boring) story.

Now smile That's an order!! (I went to the same school of diplomacy)

Meow

 

[bozo699]

I got a really dumb idea?.........how about we quit being 4th graders and talk precision gun talk?...I like that idea better then bashing on each other, forum boss will shut it down anyway if you all don't quit it!
Wayne.

I have a better idea - why not stop throwing insults out, and gasoline on the fire, and just ask a civil question, and maybe you will get a civil answer? Duh??

I myself haven't read the thread case volume but I would kind of like to know how others reach a consistent way of doing it, some use water and others ball powder, how do you determine when the case is full and not under or over, cause if I am real careful I can over fill on with water and really easy to under fill, so experts how is it done?
Wayne.

Why do you want case volume, and at what stage do you want it.

If you want the volume of the case itself, just weigh it, in grams, divide that number by 8.43, and that will give you the volume of the case body itself, in cc's.

If you want the internal case volume, at what stage do you want it - as new (why?), as fired and FL sized (why), or fired and neck sized several time (makes most sense).

If you fill it to the mouth with water, is that where you seat the bullet... sitting on top of the case?

If you want to compare cases for uniform volume, then just weigh the cases, cuz the weight will mean that they all have the same amount of metal stuff in them, and as long as the extractor grooves are reasonably uniform, the case will take up the same space in the chamber when fired, no matter what size the chamber is.

If you want the volume of the case to insert into a ballistic program, then take a case that has been fired several times and necksized only. After it's last firing, weigh the case, and weigh a bullet... write it down. Then put a tiny dent in the case mouth that will hold a bullet in place - now fill it with water, and push a bullet in to the neck so it has the same OAL as a loaded round. Wipe off the excess water, and weigh it. Subtract the weight of the case and bullet alone.

That will give you the best "water volume" you can get for the case in "your rifle".

See.. 4 year olds can play nice

An apology owed but not expected.

Catshooter,
I have not thrown out any insults or put any gasoline on the fire,..AT ALL!!!


For the second part of your post to me, that is what I was talking about,..precision gun talk, you did a very impressive, thought out answer,...thank you I think I will copy and paste it for future reference.


For the last part of your post I do not owe you an apology of any kind, you were being mean and spiteful like you have on many many of your posts, trying to pick a fight with Big Ed and others, you seem very smart and knowledgeable why can't all your posts be like the bulk of the one you wrote to me?...NO SIR NO APOLOGY but I will give you a thank you for a very informative reply,......thank you.
Wayne.