• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Beware of unwritten rules

I often wonder who makes up the rules and why. In RBA 50 yard shooting, as most of you know, a tie in total score can be broken by the number of Xs. The next tie breaker is called "first miss". That is the first shot that did not score a 10 (or so I thought). To make the first miss tie breaker meaningful, I assumed the scoring bulls were fired in numerical order. That way if I shot a first miss with my 5th shot and the other guy who tied with me in score and Xs shot his first miss on his 12th, shot, the target would show that he shot more 10s before his first miss and he would win the tie breaker. That makes sense to me as a tie breaker.

Though I have not yet competed in RBA, I wrote that in a response to a question on RFC, based on my reading of the rules. Immediately experienced RBA competitors wrote in to correct me. Yes, the numerical order of the target bull is used for first miss but competitors can shoot the bulls in any order. That means the first miss could be in bull # 25, while it could be the shooter's first shot. As I see it, you might as well just flip a coin as a tie breaker with the rule as written.
 
Wayne,

Yep, your guy looks drained because of the weight on his shoulders. Another thing guys don't realize is that he probably schedules things in his family around the matches. For five years i scheduled my family time including vacations around our match dates. I came home a day early or left a day late to honor my commitment to the Matches. This year since I'm not on the committee I actually skipped one of our matches to go on vacation.......and you know what? A part of me felt guilty. Old habits die hard.
This is Bill's first year at the helm at Shippensburg and he rearranged his family vacation to not conflict with a match date. So you see a lot more goes on with these dedicated guys than people will ever know.
I know how your guy feels. Bill offered me a spot on the committee but I declined because I just needed a break. I'll still help out where I can, but not giving 150% like I did before.
I think you need to find a guy or two to offer your guy some help before it becomes way to much like work and not fun anymore.

Danny
 
Danny,
I live 6 hours from the club I belong too and work weekend swing to boot so I have to take PTO for every match so I can't commit to a position but I usually make it to most of the matches so I am going to step up to the plate and help where ever I can, besides the pits and general cleaning up, maybe it will take enough off his plate to make it more enjoyable for him and less like a job, thanks.
Wayne.
 
I don't know who mra is , unless your are saying mr adams. I started this thread to merely advise everyone to know the rules of the matches they are attending , not to bash anyone or any club. None of my targets had any cross fires , nor did any other targets on relay one. I heard that On relay 2 there was three different targets with cross fires. John
 
This is a good reminder to be aware of the rules and the value of the committees that run them.

Personally I am surprised that more than one on a gun is ever allowed at a ground hog match and would not assume that it would be OK to do so due to the advantage. If not posted OK then no. Having said that, the biggest gh match in the area allows it. I would or will not shoot in it unless I can find a shooter to shoot with me. I think it goes against the sport unless everybody shoots as a team.

Possibly they let go once or twice and it was OK till you start winning, didn't matter. No need to be an a$$hole if you don't need to. By you both winning you made them be something they did not want to.

You can't post all the rules, how could you? No mechanical rests, no 50 cal guns, no switching guns, no flashing mirrors in opponents eyes, no two people on a gun etc..... ;D Just because there is no rule against it, does not mean it is OK.

Jim
 
John - I agree with your disdain for their unwritten rule. This is certainly below the belt. I do have a few questions - when you and your girl signed in, did you tell any official that you were sharing the same gun? If so, what did they say, if anything? Was this the first time you and she shot there and shared a rifle? Assuming three relays, it seems hard to believe that no one noticed, and did not mention this locaL rule. I do not see how sharing a rifle is any advantage to the second shooter. Ten shots or so to warm the barrel is meaningless. In fact, approx 25 shots in two consecutive relays should require cleaning between, which could be a disadvantage. I can think of one couple at Shipp doing the same thing, and we have never had a problem with it. Regards, see you Saturday, Gene
 
Gene,

This is how sharing a gun or shooting the same gun in multiple relays or classes can be an advantage.
Let's assume it's a bad mirage day nobody can see bullet holes at 500. The targets come back for relay one, you see how far off the ten ring you were so you tell your shooting partner the sight correction for when they shoot on the next relay or two. Same goes for the guy who shoots the same gun two or three times. He's got a dialed in sight setting which gives him a definite advantage. I know if I paid to shoot all three relays and used the same gun taking the best score that i shot my chances of winning would increase exponentially.

Danny
 
Danny: At one of our local match's you can use the same gun/cartridge & fire in as many relays as you want, paying the fee for each match of course. But, only the first relay fired can be counted for score. So no advantage with pre-sighting in, dopeing the winds, mirage, bench position, etc. Any firing after the first set of targets can be practice only. Same competitor can fire more than one gun, chambered in different cartridges, for example 6 BR, then 6ppc, and both would count for score. This system has worked well, and it is clearly stated in the hard copies of the rules. At another match everyone wanted to fire on the first relay to maybe avoid the wind & mirage, so it turned into a race to get to the range & sign-up a.s.a.p. A new procedure began last weekend in that names are drawn & relay & bench assignments decided by the drawing. Then everyone fires their 200 yd., then everyone fires 300, then 400, then 500 yards. The playing field is very level now & the new system worked out well.
 
Danny - Your theory is correct IF targets are pulled and brought to the line (where bullet holes then can be clearly seen) before the second relay, but most match directors wait until several relays end. So, in clubs where that is the practice, there would not be an advantage to the second shooter.
 
Danny, that's how the ground hog matches work that I've shot in. No sighters allowed and bullet holes can be seen at the 100 & 300 yd line. The targets are brought in for viewing on all relays and adjustments can be made. Can make a big difference at the 500 yd line. It is true, the winner usually comes from a gun shot by two or more people unless the weather holds perfect all day. :P

Ground hog matches are usually run different then regular matches. Two or more on a gun is often a big topic for concern.
I feel the rules weather written or not should be decided or assumed with equity for the game.

To the op, If this is a case where you clearly did not have an advantage, then I say good on you.

I would like to see a copy of the rules if there were any.
The rules for what's allowed may very well be written in black and white. If it doesn't say it's allowed, good idea to assume it's not till YOU ASK and find out otherwise.
 
tenring said:
John - I agree with your disdain for their unwritten rule. This is certainly below the belt. I do have a few questions - when you and your girl signed in, did you tell any official that you were sharing the same gun? If so, what did they say, if anything? Was this the first time you and she shot there and shared a rifle? Assuming three relays, it seems hard to believe that no one noticed, and did not mention this locaL rule. I do not see how sharing a rifle is any advantage to the second shooter. Ten shots or so to warm the barrel is meaningless. In fact, approx 25 shots in two consecutive relays should require cleaning between, which could be a disadvantage. I can think of one couple at Shipp doing the same thing, and we have never had a problem with it. Regards, see you Saturday, Gene

This was our second time shooting the same rifle and yes they were told we'd be shooting the same rifle . We were not told about the 2 person 1 rifle rule until after she shot her 500 yard target at our second match . She has only shot in 4 matches her entire life , she never fired a rifle until this year.

John
 
We shoot unlimited sighters with no time limit in a Tuesday morning 200, 300,400yd groundhog benchrest score shoot. One of the gents, an accomplished shooter, shoots the same 30BR gun as Limited Class in relay 1 and then as Unlimited Class in relay 2. While he does occasionally experiment with different loads the same day, he usually shoots the same load in both guns. Over 14 shoots his average relay 1 score is one point higher than his average relay 2 score.

Meanwhile I shoot 2 different guns in 2 different classes in both relays. My average is the same for both classes after 18 shoots. As in within 4 points total after 18 shoots. Why? All I can think of is that, on average, conditions are a little worse in relay 2 as it is shot about 20-30 minutes after relay 1.
 
Getting back to the rule issue, as I've said before the guys who make them up are doing the best that they can.
As Frank said when something like this comes up the rule will be added in writing on thier web page for all to see.
My only suggestion is If you don't like a rule, or the way a match is run ask to join the Match committee, get involved, help with the Matches, work to make changes that will help everybody............OR....... don't shoot there anymore if you can't accept the rules as they are or how the Match is run. It's your choice.

Danny
 
Still sounds like BULLCRAP to me John. What it does sound like is that Men's EGO"S got hurt by your lady! On the subject of working any shoots, even if your at a club you traveled to always offer your service, I do.
 
billslattery tries to imitate the voice of Rose, Charlie's stalker... "But I didn't treat you like that and you still left me anyway."
 
Shot at williamsport hated the politics.
Shot F class hated the politics
Shot ground hog hated the politics
I was a member at 6 clubs and I am now a member of one club and I shoot early in the morning before anyone
shows up and I am happy as hell. Just listen to you guy's!!! That's the same crap I use to listen to at all the club's I belonged to. Shooter's are big babies. The only place I ever shot where men acted like men was Camp Perry. Maybe military men just have more class!!!


PS: I have never belonged to any club that look's out for every one.
 
I find this to be very interesting. I just copied and pasted the following from the rules of the club that said 2 people 1 rifle was not allowed .

For safety purposes:
Bolt-action firearms will have bolts remove. Slide, lever or hinged action firearms will have their actions open and a piece of cloth inserted into the action so it can be seen and the action cannot be closed. If two or more shooters are using the same firearm and/or equipment it will be their responsibility to notify the GHS committee so provisions can be made to allow both participants to shoot. This will be the only time shooters may switch relays/benches with other shooters. The scorekeeper must be notified of any and all changes before 9:00 a.m. so the target personnel can make the proper adjustments.

Am I missing something here ? Is everyone else reading what I'm reading ? :-\

John
 
Another good one !

NOTE: Changes, without advanced notification, may be made by the “Groundhog Shoot” committee or by vote of the membership. Any changes will be posted at the registration building prior to the shoot following the change.


I didn't see any notification.


I say no more on the subject. John
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,247
Messages
2,214,613
Members
79,487
Latest member
Aeronca
Back
Top