best way to fireform brass

[coyoteklr]

i have tried the oatmeal way and really don't care for it at all.....it doesn't leave crisp shoulder.....
i use a max powder charge behind the bullet grn. i will be using or heavier to fire form....
anyone have any other good ideas or tips??????????

 

[fdshuster]

I've just done 60 Lapua 6BR to 6BRX. Tried the cow/false shoulder method, using a 6.5 mm expander for the false shoulder, 7.5 grs. Bullseye, cow & cotton, and as you, had severly rounded shoulders at the shoulder/body junction. Headspace was .014" short of where they are after the second firing & the primer backed out slightly. Ended up just loading the 6BR as normal with 31.5 grs. of Varget, 85 gr. FB bullets, jammed .010", and they have formed perfectly with the first firing. Did not lose a single case. My standard method from this day forward.

 

[Larryh128]

Mid level load of faster burning powder for caliber & jam into the lands. No issues as long as you don't try to hot rod the loads.

 

[artbosco]

"Fill the case necks about 1/2 way up with powder, seat a suitable bullet, lube the body, and fire." ... got that from my friend Jackie Schmidt

 

[spclark]

I think the BEST way is Hornady's hydraulic case-forming die idea.

NO bullets to waste, powder or primers to burn, NO wear and tear on match grade barrels, NO wondering about performance if you're fire-forming cases during a match, NO 45 mile trips to the nearest range to do fire-forming where it's legal to do so (rather than my back yard, where it isn't)...

Other than the up-front cost, what's not to like?

Read this thread:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3760652.msg35928478.html#msg35928478

 

[1000yardstare]

Just fireformed fifty 6.5x57 Ack Imp using Rem 7x57 cases necked down to 6.5mm.

Loaded with 18 gr Red Dot then filled with COW up to the bottom of the neck all held in place with an old cleaning patch stuffed into the neck. No bullet.

Worked great. Fully filled out with no primer protrusion. Primers had the appearance of a regular bullet load.

Quite a "crack" to the firing, not something you would want to do in your basement.

 

[Bronsin]

"Fill the case necks about 1/2 way up with powder, seat a suitable bullet, lube the body, and fire." ... got that from my friend Jackie Schmidt

This right here ;D

 

[Cameron SS]

What is this COW you guys are talking about, and how does it work to fire form

 

[jonbearman]

+1 for the cow method!

 

[spclark]

Cream of Wheat.

A breakfast food product. You ought to be able to find it on the shelf at any well-stocked grocery store:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_of_Wheat

Enjoy!

 

[bigedp51]

WARNING

Lubing cartridge cases doubles your bolt thrust or force on your bolt and lug recesses in the receiver.

The American military tells you to NOT lube your cartridge cases, the American firearms industry, ammunition manufactures and reloading industry tells you to NOT lube your cartridge cases.

The H. P. White Laboratories states that the majority of catastrophic firearms failures are not caused by one single high pressure event. The majority of these catastrophic failures are caused by repeated lower pressure events.

To this day the British Military still uses lubed proof pressure cartridges to proof test their small arms. The oiled proof cartridges simulate the stresses the firearm will receive under combat conditions.

None of the people who recommend lubing cartridge cases have the pressure measuring equipment or strain gauges that the firearms industry has to test their online statements.

What is so hard to understand about the firearms industry's warnings? Or do you think the Surgeon General and the firearms industry are lying to us?

I collected the British Enfield rifle that could have as much as .017 head gap clearance or "air space" between the rear of the cartridge case and the bolt face. And I would NEVER lube ANY cartridge case for ANY reason, or lube a cartridge case to prevent case stretching in the web area.

Pressures, Case Strength and Back Thrust
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pressures-case-strength-back-thrust-1.php

The answer to the fireforming question is here in our forum.
http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html


So go ahead and light up and smoke them if you got them, smoking never hurt anything or anyone. :
Someone in a forum told me it was OK to smoke and not worry about it.

 

[artbosco]

WARNING Lubing cartridge cases doubles your bolt thrust or force on your bolt and lug recesses in the receiver.

Every short range "B"enchrest shooter who's ever fireformed brass will tell you to lube brass before you fireform the first time. It prevents the case from being over stressed in the case head area which prevents case head separation later on.

I've been doing it for years and it's recommended in the last two books written on the subject of short range "B"enchrest accuracy.

Including, Tony Boyer's new book, The Book of Rifle Accuracy, in Chaper 13: Cases, Page 154, first paragraph, starting on line seven, where he states:

"Just before firing, very lightly oil the outside of the cases. Take a rag, saturate it with light gun oil and lightly rub the rage on the cases. This ensures the case will not stick to the chamber wall. Instead the case will thrust on the bolt face and the front of the chamber, maximizing expansion. The result is a well-formed case very close in dimensions to one fired multiple times.

After the cases are fireformed, inspect them to make sure all is well. The shoulder/ body and the shoulder/neck junctions should be reasonably sharp. There should be no splits in the neck and the body should be straight.

The final steps in fireforming are full-length sizing followed by trimming."

 

[Killshot]

I'm with BigEd on this one........

There's no reason to think that the case's obturation won't expand toward the front of the chamber with less force than anywhere else. The bolt-face is the weakest part of the chamber, why stress it?

 

[jo191145]

Hi Ed Good to see you back. Figured you jump on this one ;D
Hope all is well with you and yours.

No reason to believe?
Sorry Killshot, You may want to rethink that scenario.

I'm with BigEd on this one........

There's no reason to think that the case's obturation won't expand toward the front of the chamber with less force than anywhere else. The bolt-face is the weakest part of the chamber, why stress it?

 

[1000yardstare]

Some types of COW contain table salt. In my neck of the woods the instant type contains the salt, the 3 minute type does not. Have to read the box carefully.

 

[TonyR]

I recently fire-formed 70 6.5X284 Lapua cases for my Shehane using the COW and I had most of the experiences mentioned by everyone. I used a light charge of Bulls-eye with COW and toilet paper capped with bullet grease. Results were two split necks, about two thirds sharp shoulders, a small donut that had to be removed for neck turning, and no primer problems. When it was all said and done, the main advantage was reduced cost because I didn't need to buy a bullet and I think I saved one of three steps I normally take when I use expander mandrels to open up the case necks to 7mm. And, I was able to fire them under my carport without a trip to the range which at that time was three hours away. I made a big muffler to keep the noise down. My neighbor wanted to know what I was building with my nail-gun!! I still needed to expand them one time with a mandrel for the neck turner and I still needed to fire them one time with a bullet to square up the shoulders and improve concentricity after turning the necks, but they were certainly in good enough shape for that firing to take place in a mid-range match or practice. One caution about COW. As 1000yardstare says, read the box ingredients carefully because there are several COW products at the grocery and some of them have a high sodium content. I used one that had very low sodium content. Also, I did run a patch down the barrel about every 10 shots to clean out the gunk. It is also well worth working up the powder charge in half grain increments because I found that the heavier charges kept the barrel cleaner of gunk. All in all, I'm still not sure what is the best way to expand cases. It may just depend on where you are located and what other options you might have.

 

[bigedp51]

There are many smart, intelligent, experienced competitive shooters who lube their cartridge case for the purpose of fire forming them and never have any problems.

There are also many smart, intelligent, experienced golfers who have never been struck by lighting while playing golf.

If you look at the hydraulic forming die photos you will see that nothing has changed and the cases do not fill out to the chamber dimensions until you reach the higher chamber pressures. This means even with a lubed case resting against the bolt face the shoulder will not conform to chamber dimensions until near maximum loads are used. This means near twice the force exerted on the bolt face for a longer period of time than with a dry cartridge.

At Varmint Al's http://www.varmintal.com/ there is a very good section on the coefficient of chamber friction and bolt thrust that you might want to read.

I trust the people with the proper pressure measuring test equipment and strain gauges.

 

[artbosco]

There are many smart, intelligent, experienced competitive shooters who lube their cartridge case for the purpose of fire forming them and never have any problems.

.... and, because they use custom made, tight tolerance, benchrest rifles with actions and bolts built specifically to withstand 60,000 to 70,000 PSI in their chambers.

Caveat: For the average, run of the mill, mass produced rifle, lubing brass for fireforming may not be such a good idea, given the poor quality of materials and workmanship which abounds throughout the the world, including, sorry to say, within our own shores.

If you're holding one of those, all bets are off, as you could be holding a lightening rod or a cancer stick as one has alluded to earlier.

 

[Rock Knocker]

What is the benefit of lubeing your cases? Ive never heard of fireformed cases getting stuck in the chamber to begin with.

 

[jo191145]

What is the benefit of lubeing your cases? Ive never heard of fireformed cases getting stuck in the chamber to begin with.

Actually Rock everytime you pull the trigger and make a cartridge go boom its stuck in the chamber. I would assume its stuck right up until the bullet leaves the muzzle.
The firing pin will always make sure that case is jammed all the way forward in the chamber upon firing unless steps are taken to negate that.

Bring any excessive headspace into the eqation and the only part of the brass that can stretch is the web. This will weaken the brass giving short case life (still allowing that excess headspace is involved)
The lube allows the brass less stick and the chamber pressure forces the case back against the bolt face. Basically allowing the brass to stretch along its entire length. This is a very simplified explanation